Sid: We want everyone everywhere to understand God’s marvelous gift of grace. But you know what, there is a hyper-grace movement that is totally distorting God’s wonderful gift of grace. So I said “Who do I know that would be the best person to analyze what is true Biblical grace, and what is wrong with the hyper-grace movement?” Of course it was called the no brainer it’s my friend Dr. Michael Brown. Dr. Brown for those of you that aren’t familiar with him; he has a PhD in Near Eastern Languages from New York University. He speaks, reads, or writes a dozen languages. He has been in the scriptures for decades in the original languages. Mike I’m sure you had a burden before we even contacted you about this hyper-grace message that’s going around. When did you first… were concerned about this?
Michael: Well it’s because I love the message of grace so much and I’m so jealousy for God’s true grace. I started to get burdened when I saw just some distortions, some mixture that was coming with the grace message. But in particular the last year everywhere I turn I’m running into this. Everywhere I turn I’ll quote a scripture about holiness and purity and someone will come back to me “That’s legalism, why are you throwing this under me, I’m under grace.” And I thought that’s a strange response. I would talk about let’s press in, let’s go after the Lord and let’s seek Him. And they’d throw something back at me “That’s works. I’m under grace.” And then they’d start using all the same terms. “I’m not into behavior modification, I’m not into sin management.” And I thought “Where are these coming from?” And so the more I began to look at it the more I saw that there were a number of books, a number of teachers and a number of ministries that all felt that they were part of a “grace revolution” or a “grace reformation.” Some of them say that there have been things hidden from the church 100′s and 100′s of years and now we have recovered it and we are putting this out. And I became increasingly alarmed when I saw the extreme claims that were being made. I became increasingly alarmed when I saw people being damaged. Then Sid it was like a flood pastors, leaders, believers literally from all over the America and different countries saying “Mike you’ve got to speak about this, you’ve got to write about this, this is splitting our churches. This is confusing our people, families are being torn apart.” And I saw some being touched by a great revelation of grace. And I’m so jealous for it because we can never for a split second down play, despise, denigrate God’s grace. We live by grace 24-7 but I saw it being mixed with dangerous error.
Sid: Let me tell you what concerns me the most at this point. The Bible says “Without holiness we will not even see God.” And what the affect it’s having, even the ones that are not really in heresy, which most of them have a little bit of this heresy, is that when people start watching the TV shows, reading the books what happens is that barometer for holiness goes down and they start compromising. I don’t want to share testimonies of men and women of God that have done things like leaving their wife and marrying their secretary. But here’s the thing, that’s happened even before the hyper-grace message.
Michael: Hm hm.
Sid: But it’s justifying it, that’s what’s bothering me.
Michael: Right, and here’s the thing every hyper-grace teacher that I’ve read and listened to many I’ve dialoged with; I’ve reached out to them and said “I’m writing about this, I’m quoting you do I understand you correctly are you willing to reconsider your position?” And we’ve gone back and forth and I say “No, this is where I stand.” Here’s the deal though everyone that I speak to they say the same thing “No, no, no grace is not a license for sin” when you understand grace rightly it helps you to overcome sin.” I said “But the problem is when you teach that God has already forgiven all our future sins before we’ve ever commit them; when you teach we never have to confess our sins to God; when you teach that the Holy Spirit never convicts us of sin anymore; when you tell us that anything where you have to exert some sort of effort to please God or obey God that that’s all wrong that that the flesh that that’s not grace.” Of course you’re setting people up for destruction; of course you’re opening the door for deception to come in. And I’ve told them “We’re not telling people that grace gives them a license to sin your very message is telling it in other ways.” And that’s the mixture, God’s true grace Titus 2nd chapter teaches us to say “No to ungodliness.” God’s true grace changes us from the inside out. Now here’s what is so important I didn’t call the message counterfeit grace in my book because there’s a wonderful true message that they’re preaching but it’s been preached with exaggeration; it’s been preached with distortion; it’s been preached with error added in. So a lot of people just get the true part and they’ll say “My life has been changed by this message” I want to preserve that; I’m jealous for that; I don’t want to take away any good thing that anyone received. But when you mix anything with a little poison it can be deadly Sid.
Sid: You know one of the statements that I hear quite often and I believe we have to define this many say “I’m under the New Testament not under the Old; I’m not under the law anymore.” What would you say I walked up to you Mike and I said “I’m not under the law anymore.” What would you say?
Michael: I would say absolutely, number 1 you’re not under the law as a system of justification; you don’t have to keep this commandment, this commandment to be justified. We’ve been justified through faith in Jesus saying “God save me from my sins.” You’re not under the law as a system of justification; you’re not under the condemnation of the law that if you fail to keep the Sabbath one day there’s a death penalty of something like that. And you’re not under the law as a tutor, or a supervisor to bring you to the Messiah. This is all laid out in scripture; as a matter of face I get into this in detail in my book as well. So the law is no longer leading us to the Messiah; we have found the Messiah and we’re in Him. NOW under the New Covenant the law is written on our hearts. NOW under the new covenant we have a higher standard. The law said “Don’t commit adultery.” Jesus now says to us “Don’t lust in your heart.” The law said “Don’t murder, now Jesus grace says to us don’t hate in your heart.” So now we are supernaturally empowered to do what the law commanded us to do; we couldn’t before, it was written on a tablet saying “Do this, do that.” Now through grace it’s written in our hearts and that’s why Hebrew’s warns us “Don’t tamper with it because this is so much higher; so much more precious it cost Jesus His blood.”
Sid: Okay, if that’s true why don’t… since the law is written in our heart why don’t we just cut out our Old Testament and throw it away. Why should we even hang on to it?
Michael: Awe, do you know that one hyper-grace teacher of whom I quote in my book went as far as saying and I wrote to him and said “You still stand by?” He said “100%.” He said “The Bible Society,” I don’t know which Bible Society he meant, “made a terrible mistake when they put the Old Testament together with the New Testament it has terribly confused believers.” Sid I have chapters in my book talking about how the Old Testament is thrown out. And people say “No, no, no we can learn from it; we can learn from examples.” Well Paul writes in 1st Corinthians 10 to believers and said “Look at how Israel sinned.” Look at how adultery, sexual morality, and don’t do the same because these are warnings for us. Sid the Bible of the early church was quote the Old Testament that’s the only Bible they had. Paul preached grace based on the Old Testament; now people want to throw it out. That’s an ancient heresy that goes back to an early church leader who went heretical called Marcion and it goes all the way back to the 2nd century; it’s being revisited today. People are getting so caught up…
Sid: So the same spirit that was on this Marcion is on the hyper-grace teachers today.
Michael: Or at least the tendency to go in that same direction. There is one very well know TV preacher, author that he has a series a teaching series that contrast the God of the New Testament; the God of love and mercy with the God of wrathful God of the Old Testament. That is classic Marcion belief. So we need to recognize a serious root of error. Sid, I’ve read stuff. You know I read the Hebrew like other people read the English.
Sid: Listen, you provoke me to jealousy. Not only does he read the Hebrew but he has memorized a great deal of the Old Covenant in Hebrew. Is that correct?
Michael: Yeah and I’m provoked that there is a whole lot more that I want to memorize that I want to get in my heart and mind. It’s not that big a book when you really think about it. But Sid I read some quotes and here’s what happens, Preacher A says it and then 100 other people repeat it. I see verbatim book after book, teaching after teaching, they all say the same thing because they all think that Brother So and So researched it because he said the Hebrew said this and that. And it’s wrong!
Michael: That’s absolutely false; that’s absolutely false. I think “What Bible are they reading?” And what grieves me is that some of these people are fine people with a fine message that could help so many. But they feel as if to really preach grace they have to go to this hyper-extreme. Some of them say “If it’s not too good to be true it’s not grace.” Well then here’s a logical question, “If there is a hell, if there’s future punishment, then it’s not too good to be true.” Some of them have gone off the deep end and say “That’s right everyone will be ultimately be saved because hey “It’s grace.” This is where it leads.
Sid: Don’t even some of them say the devil is going to end up being saved?
Michael: Yeah, there’s one fellow whose promote it; he used to promote a healthy revival repentance message. Then he began to preach hyper-grace and the moment that you try to interact you are Ishmael, I am Isaac, you are under the law and the flesh and I’m in the Spirit. And now he keeps going further and further and says “Why not, why not Satan being redeemed; why not these wicked spirits being redeemed?” Is there anything outside of God’s grace? Now 99% of the guys would reject that but that’s where it does when it goes untethered from scriptural truth.
Sid: You know Mike I am so excited to release your brand new book we are the first it’s called “Hyper-Grace” subtitled “Exposing the Dangers of the Modern Grace Message.” It’s 300 plus pages. But this is in my opinion the defining book for one of the greatest heresies that the church has had in modern times….
Sid: I love the teaching of my guest because my guest says that what we see today displaying the power of God is abnormal compared to what God wants for us. His name is Pastor Bill Johnson. I’m interviewing him on his brand new book “When Heaven Invades Earth.” He is the Senior Pastor of Bethel Church in Redding, California. I’ve been there, and I have to say Pastor Bill it is a wild exciting happening. And that’s the best way that I can describe your Sunday morning service.
Bill: I agree I just love it so much I miss it a lot when I’m gone.
Sid: Now we’re going to have a lot of people upset with us if we don’t get right to this story. I said “You officiated in one of the most abnormal and that’s the word…”
Sid: “…unusual weddings I’ve ever heard of.” For those that didn’t listen yesterday if you would just update us real quickly and then talk about the person that you prayed for.
Bill: Okay, well we had a wedding where a couple met in our ministry to the broken and poor. They decided to invite the homeless and the poor of our city to their wedding as the honored guests. And they would give all of their wedding presents to them. They had registered at Target for coats, hats, gloves and sleeping bags. So it would be something that they could really use. A man was brought on the bus to the wedding that was in bad shape had 2½ – 3 years to live. The exciting part for me was the response of our people. They came to me so excited that there was somebody there that had 2½ – 3 years to live and they were excited because they knew what God was about to do; they had that sense that here’s another impossibility that’s going to bow it’s knee to the name Jesus. So when the wedding was over and my brother and I took him to the side and asked him what was wrong with the wrist? He told us that he had carpal tunnel; so I asked him if he could remove the braces. Because I like people to remove whatever they may be trusting in. And my brother and I each took an arm and laid our hands on the wrist commanded it to be well in Jesus name. We removed our hands and asked him to move them around and he did and they were completely healed. So I said “What’s wrong with your leg?” I noticed he limped and he had a cane and he told me that he had been in a very severe accident. He had stainless steel shin; I think stainless steel hip; he had half a lung removed. It was a real serious thing and his leg ended up 2 short; when they put everything back together it was just too short. So we prayed for him; I had him sit down and of course most people like to close their eyes when we pray and I like to keep them open so I can see what God’s doing. So I said “I want you to watch this.” So he watched and so we held his leg out and his leg actually grew. And you’ve got to remember he’s got metal parts in there.
Sid: I was just going to ask; it’s a miracle when bone grows…
Sid: It’s getting absolutely ridiculous.
Bill: Yeah, we’ve seen a few of those cases where metal will either grow or shrink according to what the need is. And in his case it needed to grow so we command it to grow; either the bone or the metal something grew. The leg came completely out and he walked across the room. This was really funny; I love to pray for nonbelievers because they just don’t have that religious response you know. He stood up he just kind of shifted his weight from side to side and he said “That’s about right.” And it made me feel like he was trying on a new pair of shoes or something. But I said “Why don’t you walk across the room.” And he did and there was no pain, there was no limp he was completely well. I said “What’s up with the neck? And he said “Oh, he said “I’ve got cancer and they’ve said “I’ve got 2½ – to 3 years to live.” And he had this brace that actually held his head in place it wasn’t like a small whip lash that breaks; that was just for protection. It actually held his head in place. I said “How about if you remove that.” And he said “That would be fine so he did, but he told us ahead of time that the muscles in his neck were destroyed and he wasn’t able to hold his head up.” Now I don’t remember it’s been awhile, and I don’t remember is it was because of the cancer or the chemotherapy at any rate the muscles weren’t functional to hold his head up. So we had a bunch of folks gather around him; and actually a medical doctor came and held his neck his head in place and we began to pray. And the medical doctor I heard him call out the muscles by their Latin names commanding them to grow. We prayed for maybe 60 seconds, maybe 2 minutes. And when we were through, removed our hands and the gentleman turned is head from side to side and all of the strength was restored in his neck instantly. Then he put his hand on the side of his neck and he said “They’re gone.” I said “What are you doing?” He said “They’re gone.” I said “What?” He said “The lumps on his neck” apparently the cancer. And he went back to the doctor and got a clean bill of health because the Lord had healed him completely of the cancer and everything else.
Sid: Out of curiosity a homeless man; a few years to live, his chronic pain, limp, braces.
Sid: What happened to him? Unsaved.
Bill: Yeah, he was around town for a while he actually went back to work; he hadn’t worked in 17 years. He had been on the welfare system for all of that time for various reasons. He got a job within a couple of weeks. I don’t know that they were hopeless; I think that they were living in an old school bus so they had some sort of covering a roof over their head.
Sid: You made a comment to me, your glad that he wouldn’t have the typical religious response. What is the religious response?
Bill: It’s actually harder sometimes to pray for Christians because they have this thing in their head… they have an expectation of what’s going to happen or what’s not going to happen. And a non-Christian just seems to have a clean slate. And Christians tend to give me some sort of religious response. They’ll say “Well, I know it can happen or know that it’s going to happen someday.” They almost shut down the miracle just in their response.
Sid: Are Christians almost brainwashed to walk in unbelief?
Bill: Oh, absolutely. (Laughing) People will tell me all the time that I know that God can do it; it’s faith that says “I know He will.” There’s a great difference that hope that says “I know that He can,” and the faith that says “I know that He will.”
Sid: So what advice do you give a Christian that’s saying “That’s me, I’ve got a disease, I’ve been prayed for by the best I know God heals; I know that God wants to heal me but I’m not making that connection I must be rain washed, what should I do?”
Bill: We’ve got to return to a place of rest. Hebrew 3 and 4 talks about that place of rest, it’s not a striving. The culture that we have in America much of the faith culture is a striving culture where we are laboring so hard to believe. And faith really comes out of rest; it comes out of a place of acceptance.
Sid: Your right; it’s almost a works mentality “I’ve got to do something to earn my healing.”
Bill: Exactly or to earn faith to get my healing.
Sid: I’ve got to mediate for 8 hours every day and then I’ll have my faith.
Bill: Yeah, the enemy what he does he tends to use the principals that are true to have us overuse them to have us at the point of abuse so that we lose the real nutrient if you will, the nutrient value of the truth. So the striving has to stop; we got to come to a place of real peace. That shalom of heaven to really saturate our hearts. Faith is the most natural response for the Christian if he’s had a true encounter with God.
Sid: Now in your book you talk about the original commission that Adam and Eve had to subdue the whole earth. However it got short circuited; explain that.
Bill: Well, Adam and Eve were giving the commission to subdue the earth and to be fruitful, multiply and subdue the earth in Genesis 1. Be fruitful means to have a productive life to multiply means to have children, who have children, who have children. Subdue the earth means outside of the garden that God planted them in it’s not in divine order it’s chaotic and dark. And God gave them the commission to be His representation on the earth. The Bible says the heavens were made for man but the earth was… or the heavens were made for God but the earth was made for man. And so we were assigned to be delegated authority of God to establish His dominion through us bringing the earth under our dominion. And man gave it up; when we obeyed the serpent all that we owned that was given to the serpent that was given to the enemy. The Bible says “That we are slaves of the one that we obey.” When Adam and Eve obeyed the devil they gave up their keys of authority over the planet. So when the Bible says that “Jesus came to seek and to save that that was lost,” I don’t want to cause offense here but I don’t believe that that particular passage is talking to save lost people. He obviously did, but He came to save that which was lost which was the dominion that man gave up to the enemy when we obeyed the serpent. In Luke 4 Jesus had a confrontation with the enemy after 40 days of fasting. And the devil told Him “If you’d bow down and worship me I will give you all the kingdoms of the world.” And he made this statement “For they have been handed over to me and I can give them to whomever I wish.” He was making a statement there he was telling the truth. They were given over to me from Adam and Eve and now I can give them to whomever I want.” And they way that whole story reads to me is that Jesus… Satan was kicked out of heaven because he wanted to we worshiped like God. And now he’s standing in front of Jesus and he saying “Jesus I know what you came for; I have keys of dominion that you came for but you know what I want I want to be worshiped, so if you bow down and worship me I’ll give you the keys back.” And of course Jesus said “No,” and was crucified on our behalf, and when he ascended He first descended to the lower parts of the earth. He got the keys of dominion back and He stood before the disciples in Matthew 28 the great commission. And He said “All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth.” And the interesting thing to remember here is that Jesus did not make that proclamation as God because God never lost that authority. He said that as man, as our elder brother the one who had gone before us the first born of creation to take the keys of dominion back and then he gave them back to us to continue with the original commission.
Sid: Because if He had done that as His role as God then there would be no hope for us to walk in that type of authority. But if He did that as man you explain in your book, then that’s why He said “As I am, so are you also.”
Bill: Yes, that’s exactly right; that’s exactly it. If He did it as God I’m impressed, but if He did it as the Son of man I’m compelled to follow.
Sid: My guest Pastor Hank Kunneman, he’s Senior Pastor of Lord of Hosts Church in Omaha, Nebraska. God blessed him with a prophetic gift as a young person; so precise he actually provokes me to jealousy. And he just doing exactly what the Bible says to do. It says that the Gentile is to provoke the Jew to jealousy. I’m Jewish and I am provoked to jealousy. On yesterday’s broadcast although we were talking about, although he gets specific words for just any one in the audience, he gets many specific words about prominent people. Tell me again about the word you got about the burning bush and Al Gore.
Hank: Yeah, and it was actually in May in 1999 and I actually went to get the microphone and went out into vision and I literally saw a hand an evil hand being raised up out of the earth. In its hand was Al Gore and it had claws and it was trying to raise it up out of the land. And at that moment I remember saying “Lord is this the one whole shall be elected for President?” But I remember seeing the evil hand and it was lifting up Gore and I know that this was not popular because many people feel like they got the election stolen in the year 2000. But I saw an evil hand lifting up Al Gore, it’s not an attack against him but this is what I saw. I began to see the hand of God coming with tremendous speed out of the heavens. And He was moving towards this evil hand that had Al Gore in it, this was in 1999 way before the 2000 election. All of a sudden I saw God’s hand strike literally the evil hand and go around it 3 times, once, twice and three times and then I saw literally the hand that evil hand let go of Gore and Gore dropped. And I saw God reach down and lift up this burning bush and placed him over the White House. And it was shortly after that that that the Lord began to deal with me when all of this was happening. Just before the election the Lord began to show me that the election was going to go even as high as the Supreme Court. And I remember telling the congregation here at The Lord of Hosts and even around the nation I said “I don’t know what it is about this election but there is something about the Supreme Court, I had a dream and God said 5 to 4. Of course that was the outcome of the Supreme Court’s decision 5 to 4 regarding the 2000 election and their involvement. It was shortly after that and I was praying in my church here and the Lord spoke these words to me and He said “George Bush, Sr., George Bush Jr.” And it’s not them it’s not them as a person and any candidate see things that maybe God agrees with and things that God doesn’t. But He said “Hank I want you to understand the Father and the Son. I’m doing this to give a prophetic sign to America that Malachi 4 will be fulfilled in the land of America. It’s called restoration. The hearts of the Fathers to the sons; the sons to the fathers. And He said “I’m raising up the son even as the son even as the father was raised up to bring restoration to America.” It was shortly after that Sid it was in… I want to say shortly after the election I began to prophesy I think it was right after the inauguration of the 2000 election. That soon after the President was seated there would come an attack against the economy and that there would also come an attack and evil ploy from the enemy that would bring America into turmoil with the land of the land of the east. I then began to talk about; in fact it was August of 2001, I began to talk about that there would come not only a great turmoil in the land of the east. But that there would come a great fear that would strike the nation of America. What I did not realize that a month later that obviously that we had the horrific September 11th the atrocity that happened in our nation. I also remember prophesying that in would have been in June 2003 we prophesied that Saddam Hussein would be caught by the end of the year.
Sid: So tell me if Saddam Hussein had not been caught before the end of the year what would have happened to Hank Kunneman, and what would have gone on inside of you?
Hank: I think that that’s a great question because prophets, true prophets, and again there’s always 400 to 1 as how I say it. There is 400 prophets of the land and they were prophesying one thing; but then there was a prophet called Elijah who brought the word of the Lord and when he spoke he got results. There was I think 400 prophets of Ahab and I believe in the book of Kings or Samuel. Where he was on the payroll of these 400 prophets and there was this one called Micah and he prophesied the true word of the Lord and in fact Ahab didn’t like him. And what I say is the true prophets of the Lord that are being used in that fashion they are greatly outnumbered from those of the land. Now here’s my point, I think that any time that a prophet prophecies something like that it should come to past. Some prophesies are conditional. However, I believe we use that as a “Well, it didn’t come to pass it was conditional.” I believe that God is taking His prophets in a whole different realm; true ones in places where they never have been before. They are going to have to risk.
Sid: I have to believe that there are a lot of hidden prophets.
Hank: I agree.
Sid: And as far as I’m concerned most prophets that I see on television today are mixture. Why do I say that because I have a prophetic insight into their life? No, I don’t but if their prophecies aren’t coming to pass, and they are specific. Like Saddam Hussein will be captured before the end of the year, that’s specific there is no wiggle room there. You either miss it or you hit it. I don’t see God in the Old Covenant allow His prophets to miss it; so why under a better Covenant do we have such mixture?
Hank: Right, and I agree with you there and I remember how I honestly felt Sid. There’s times, and I could put myself obviously in the prophets shoes. There are times where I have prophesied things out of mouth and my head went “What are you saying.” In fact in the 2000 election…
Sid: You had a mind bypass.
Hank: Sure, and in the 2000 election when they announced Gore was the President I had been all over the country saying that this man Bush would be raised up. I shared the vision and of course I wanted to put the covers over my head and hide. But I think because God’s taking His prophets where they’ve never been before. We have to give prophets who have had proven characters, proven marriages, proven family, proven doctrine; I think that we have to give a little bit of room. I’m not saying it as a cop out but what I am saying is you know the prophetic ministry is the only ministry that I feel has carried such an incredible attack from many whether it be from the Body of Christ or whether it be from the secular realm. Because they are speaking “Form the Lord.” But the New Testament has more to say about false teachers than it has to say about false prophets. And what we have to be careful of is that we have to put the prophet’s office under the Old Testament stoning and conditions, and we don’t do that for any of the fivefold offices. Also as I’ve looked at the stoning of a prophet and what I’ve come to understand and I’ve submitted it to those who really understand doctrine. They weren’t stoned necessarily on what they said only if it was to turn the people away from God if there was character issues. But you know Samuel missed it listen why didn’t they stone Samuel he missed it at the house of Jesse. When he thought that the different ones that were being brought out before him were the Lord’s anointed. But you didn’t stone him at that. So I think that we have to realize is that we’ve never gone this way before. I think that we have a lot more media and things that we have to deal with than the prophets of old, and I don’t say that as a cop out. And I also believe that when he went to the house of Philip he had four virgin daughters that did prophecy. And it’s interesting that they were listed as virgins and they prophesied. Here is what I’ve seen with much of the prophetic is that we have vessels that are carrying quote the pure word of the Lord that aren’t keeping themselves pure. Their characters are out of whack, their marriages are out of whack; their lifestyles are out of whack.
Sid: Why are there so many people in ministry today that are being divorced and remarried? Well it’s 1 out of 2 people but it’s almost like in your face today. Why is this going on?
Hank: Well, I believe that there’s obviously a lack of character and integrity among many of God’s vessels. I believe that before we can rule over the house of God we have to rule over our own house well. I also believe that even in the house of Genesis when there was the Wells of Abraham that was filled with dirt and they had to re-dig the wells again. The Bible says that out of our spirits will flow rivers of living water. And I think that we have filled so much of our lives with wells of living water. And I think that sometimes we have filled our lives with so much of the world and we cannot get the pure flow of heaven. And the more purer you are in your private life and because that’s who you really are. Who you are in your marriage, who you are in your as a dad, who you are as a pastor. I believe that God can release a pure word that is not tainted. And there is a real wake-up call. In fact the Lord told me that in the year 2005 that there would begin to be a shaking among ministries around the world. That God was going to…
Sid: Let it happen fast.
Hank: Well, He said these words that “Before the end of 2004 He’s looking for the Body of Christ to bow their knee.” What they would not repent of in 2004 it will be exposed in 2005. In fact that was one of the words that I had when President Bush was elected in 2000 and also here in 2004. That righteousness is seated in the nation; all things are exposed. And that’s what the Lord said to me when President Bush was in power in the first election. “Righteousness is in the nation and all things will be exposed.”
Sid: Let me ask you a question. People that come to mind of ministry people exposed. Jim Baker, Jimmy Swaggart; did God give you any insight there?
Hank: Actually that was interesting that you asked that. Yes, in fact I was a young Christian again. I believe that was in ’86, ’87 I had been in prayer and I saw what looked like a Judges gavel come down and literally hit the desk. And I saw one of their faces appear before me and I really appreciated their ministry, I loved their ministry and I was torn when I saw their ministry. It was Brother Swaggart and I felt that he did a tremendous job of holding back evil. But what I also believe is that if God is raising up a prophet or someone like Swaggart for example where multitudes were being touched by his ministry; we have got to uphold his ministry. We have have got to uphold those people in a place of prayer. Because when you’re on the front lines, and I believe this about the prophets office is that out of all the gifts and out of the offices in the Body of Christ the one that Satan fears. I mean he doesn’t mind the arms growing out and the limbs growing out and people getting out of wheelchairs; yeah he minds. But my point is he fears a prophet or a prophetic vessel that’s getting pure words from heaven that are telling you national events, international events that are setting people free that are setting people free; that are changing the course of nations. Any time we see a vessel like that the Body of Christ we have been sometimes too quick to criticize.
Sid: You know I see many ministries that are in the forefront and coming against the sin of homosexuality are the ones that get hit so hard. It must be a very strong spirit
Hank: Well, let me tell you what I’ve seen; I’ve seen pure prophets stand up against it. But I’ve seen sometimes I watch for people and I listen because sometimes the very things that they will pronounce judgment, or cry out judgment on, are the very things that they secretly are dealing with in their own life.
Sid: Oh, we’re out of time.
Sid: I’ve been explaining all of this week about the One New Man and how we just got back from Siberia and we saw multitudes of Jews and Gentiles come to the Lord. But more important than that when we went to reach the Jew first the whole city opened up we could evangelize more Gentiles. I mean logic says “Go to the Gentile first.” But God says in Romans 1:16 says “Go to the Jew first.” And that was not just the historical order although it was the historical order Jesus went to the Jew first; God went to the Jew first. Abraham. Jesus said “I go only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” Paul said “I go to the Jew first.” You see this was God’s spiritual order to reach the world. If the church would only get wind of this one little nugget and this and so much more about the new wine skin that’s coming the new move of God’s Spirit is available in my latest book that’s called “The Race to Save the World.” …we are going through 10 days of prayer and fasting because it’s the Biblical festival of Rosh Hashanah, Feast of Trumpets, and tonight begins Yom Kippur, Day of Atonement. Which Jewish people throughout the world are praying and fasting, and the fast begins tonight for our sins to be forgiven and our name to be in the book of life. What a time to be in agreement of prayer that Jewish people in the synagogue have visions of Jesus and they’re a part of this great prophecy in Amos that’s says “When the house, or tabernacle, or family,” it’s all the same in Hebrew, “of David is restored.” When the Jewish people are restored to God it will trigger the greatest Gentile revival in history. Eric, this is Rabbi Eric Carlson associate with Messianic Vision as well as, the rabbi of One New Man congregation. Eric would you teach a little bit about Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur?
Eric: Oh I’d love to because these are such fantastic times. Rosh Hashanah is the New Year and sometimes people get confused because the Bible says that in the month of Nisan at Passover that’s the New Year, and we are also a New Year in the month of September, or the 7th month, which we know as Rosh Hashanah. There’s actually 2 and the spiritual beginning is during Passover, and this during Rosh Hashanah is the calendar, or the agricultural New Year. At Rosh Hashanah begins the new planting season and the new agricultural season for Israel. This is interesting because in the scriptures for Rosh Hashanah, for the New Year, it’s in Leviticus 23:23. And it t says “It’s a day of commemoration and it’s a day of sounding the shofar; it’s called Yom Turuah; Yom is Hebrew for day, and Turuah means a great blast or shout. But it’s interesting because the scriptures never say what this commemoration of the sounding of the shofar is about. And the shofar is relation to calling to God. Psalms 47 says “God’s glory descends on the sounding of the shofar.” And when we sound the shofar many believe that it’s getting God’s attention; that we’re seeking Him and He turns and looks when we sound the shofar. Those of us who are grafted in, those of us who have the blood of Yeshua wash away known no more this is really fantastic because we know what this celebration was about. And what this commemoration is because in Matthew 24 Yeshua talks about that when He returns He will come with the angels before Him with a great sounding or a blasting of a shofar. So we know what this commemoration is about; we’re rehearsing for the return of the Messiah. What a glorious thing to celebrate, I mean this is what we’re all looking for is the return of the return of the Mashiach the return of the Christ. So when we celebrate this we sound the shofar and we look forward to that great angelic cloud in the heavens announcing the arrival of Yeshua when He returns with that great sounding of the shofar. And also the old rabbis teach that at the sounding of the shofar because it when the devil, when ha-saton, the devil, when he rears the first blast of the shofar he thinks it’s just us crazy Jews blowing the shofar because the Lord commanded us to do it in the Bible. But the second time he doesn’t know if it’s us or the Messiah returning so he flees at the sounding of the shofar. So God’s glory comes at the sounding of the shofar, Yeshua return at the sounding of the shofar and the enemy flees at the sounding of the shofar. So what a great time to celebrate and sound the shofar and to come together as the One New Man and rehearse for the return of the coming of the Messiah.
Sid: You Know Eric I’m having a thought as you’re sharing right now and my thought is you have such a powerful anointing as you blow the rams horn, the shofar. I would like you to blow that shofar now and when you blow that shofar I believe that the devil will flee, sickness will flee, depression will flee, and there’ll be freedom. Because Messiah came to set the captives free and then I’m going to pray for people to receive the Siberian anointing which I feel just moving on me right now. So Eric if you would blow that shofar
Eric: (Sound of shofar)
Sid: In Yeshua’s Name I command all evil sickness to be bound and to leave; I command healing, I command healing in the back, in the spin, in the neck and in the head, every area of your body all pains go! I command healing in the heart; healing, cancer you’re evil and in the Name of Yeshua I command you to leave. Diabetes I bind you evil diabetes and I command you out in Yeshua’s name. Arthritis you’re a thing of the past, you evil arthritis you leave, insomnia you leave God’s people you have no place. I thank You Father God for the authority that has been given in Your Name in the Name that every knee must bow, every tongue must confess. And I say to you that everything that is not of God I bind every sickness, every spirit of depression, every spirit of insanity I bind you in Yeshua’s Name and I command you off of God’s people now. Next I command you to be healed in Yeshua’s Name. Now Father God pour Your Spirit pour the Siberian anointing on Your people. Father we are so hungry for You, we are so thirsty for You now, now in Yeshua’s Name. Thank You oh God, Thank You Lord. Eric there’s such a flow of God’s Spirit it’s like the river that Ezekiel saw. Ezekiel said that wherever that river went there was healing and the river of healing is flowing to God’s people right now. Tonight begins Yom Kippur Day of Atonement. What does that mean to you as a One New Man Messianic Jew Eric?
Eric: Well, again this a time of great celebration. In the Orthodox Jewish Community, Yom Kippur is a time, a very solemn time, a time of prayer and actually a time of concern. “Is my name written in the Book of Life, will I make it into heaven? But the scriptures tell us that we have a Kippur which means purge in Hebrew, our sins have been purged! We have had the ultimate sacrifice, we have had the blood of Yeshua wash away our sins to be known no more. And if you said that prayer and if you have received Yeshua as your Lord and Savior this is a time for exultation and joy!
Sid: You know Eric as you’re sharing the way you see this biblical festival, so many people copy rabbinic Judaism and even in the Messianic Jewish congregations they copy so much rabbinic Judaism it’s about time to have freedom. And that’s what God is saying, I’ve come to set the captive free and these biblical festivals are times that God promises to be in attendance! That God shows you they are rehearsals of the future of what God’s going to do in the future. Rehearsals of the great acts of that God has done in the past. How in the world will we ever provoke a Jewish person to jealousy by using Greco-Roman festivals with good spiritual meanings when you could use the exact shadows that God said to have forever? Again it has nothing to do with righteousness, it has nothing to do with salvation, it’s got to do with the blessings of God and the coming together of this Jew and Gentile for this great One New Man anointing. Mishpochah Charisma has just published my latest book it’s called “The Race to Save the World.” And in this book you’ll find out how the Rabbis’ have lead the Jewish people astray and how this happened. Now many today may love God but they are deceived, and then in the church itself you’ll see how church fathers in their anti-Semitic stance have literally moved the Gentile church astray. Now the truth is there is enough truth in the Gentile church there is enough truth in Messianic Judaism that God will use these two vehicles as it is between today and the time that Messiah returns. But haven’t you sensed in your heart of hearts that there must be something more. That’s why I’ve written this book the coming together of Jews and Christians to form the One New Man.
Sid: My guest Patricia King is red hot for the Messiah; and we are featuring this week her amazing kit. You know Patricia so many of us; no I’ll tell you what I’m going to rephrase that question differently. If you knew what you taught in “The Create Your World Series” when you were a baby believer what difference would it have made?
Patricia: Oh my gosh, Sid the keys that are taught in that course are so significant that it will literally change your world. The life that we’re living right now we actually create it you know for the most part by our belief systems; by the words we speak; by our actions. The earlier that you get to know this in your walk then the more that you can create with intentionality as you partner with God.
Sid: But what about; here’s my concern I know people that have been sitting in the church for 50 years Spirit filled churches and don’t have a clue about the keys that God’s revealed to you. Is it too late for them to change their atmosphere and fulfill their destiny?
Patricia: It’s never too late Sid and you know a lot of times people just think “Well, I’ll just wait for God to show up or I’ll wait for God to do something.” But it says in the Bible “That the heavens belong to the Lord and the earth belongs to the sons of men.” And He’s given us the earth to steward and He’s given us our life to steward and He gives us promises that we can live by and create with in Him.
Sid: Well, you are known for someone that walks in supernatural love. Now I have to tell you that I have a pet peeve. You walk into church and the pastor says “Well everyone stand up and you hug one another and you tell them that you love them” and you don’t even know who they are. And it’s like what is this? That’s not love; that’s just words.
Patricia: Yeah, you know we have to be more than words. It says in 1st Corinthians 13 1 to 3 that we actually have nothing; that we are nothing; and it profits nothing if we don’t have true love. And then it defines what true love is you know and 1st Corinthians 13 is a well-known passage of scripture and it’s easy to say but another thing to do. And I think Sid that first of all we have to know that He loved us first; when you understand that you are love beyond measure; that you are loved unconditionally by God. And you understand the love that He shared when He died on the cross for our sins; where He offered us new life then you can begin to let that life flow out to others. You can create a world create a whole realm of love everywhere that you go if you’re intentional about that.
Sid: You know I think that every true believer would like that but they don’t have a handle on how to do it. What would you say was the turning point for you?
Patricia: Well, I think Sid one of the things that made me understand love more than any other time in my life and seasoned me in love. When I went through a long season of pretty hefty persecution, and it came on some very high levels… there was a lot of people you know speaking very negative and very bitter things against me and publicly and everything. And it was a time when I thought “Lord I don’t know what to do.” He said “I just want you to love.” And I was really discouraged one day and I said “Lord, I just want to love I’m doing my best to work these things through and process the best I can with those that are in opposition but I don’t know what else to do.” A part of my spirit rose these words “I declare war.” I thought no I don’t want to declare war I just want to be at peace.” And the third time “I declare a love war.” And I realized what God was saying; He said “What the world needs now is love sweet love.” And when you look at the journey that Jesus had in His life; He was opposed on every side but He never ever failed in love. He never lost love; he never withdrew love. And the Lord said “Are you willing to embrace my sufferings because they’re love sufferings or are you willing to love those to the nth degree to bless them, to under-gird them when they are doing the exact opposite to you?” And He said “If you will do that, if you will do that you will have the foundation of the Kingdom within you which is love.”
Sid: Tell me about the homeless man that put all these words to a test.
Patricia: You know Sid this is really embarrassing in some ways because as a Christian minister you want to you know proclaim love. One night this is a number of years ago, I was doing a meeting and I have this homeless young man kind of follow us around. He came into our meetings and he had a lot of BO and his teeth were rotten; his breath was bad. And I mean everything about him just wanted me to… you know everything in me wanted to reject him. And one night I saw him come through the door into the meeting and I thought “I’d just slip into the prayer room for a moment.” And I slipped into the prayer-room and shut the door so that I would isolate myself from him. And from in my attitude inside the prayer-room I thought “Oh good I made it; you know I got away from that guy.” And the Lord nailed me; you know sometimes we can you know just be in such a rotten attitude and think it’s okay. And He said “If you continue to reject him he will become more reject able to you; but if you will accept him he will become more acceptable to you.” And I was convicted to the core and I went out there and he was actually standing at the door waiting for me. And I looked at him and I felt so much compassion and love I invited him to sit right beside me. And he was so happy to do that.
Sid: Now did you really feel the compassion of love or were you really just trying to be obedient to what you realized God wanted you to do?
Patricia: When I looked at him that night I saw him through the eyes of compassion because I was so convicted by what I had done. So it was a choice plus it was coming into a connection of how much God loved him. So I invited him after the meeting as well to have coffee with some friends of mine and he sat down and had coffee with us. Over time he became a really good friend. I remember even the next week after the coffee time he came into the meeting the following week he was all dressed up he had bought a suite at the second hand store and he was all dressed up and he had a big bible under his arm and declared that he was a man of God. You know we just loved him through the coming months and after a number of months actually he came to me and said “Patricia I got a job, I got a job.” And the job was outside of our city; he actually had to move to get the job and we were all so sad because we had come to love him that much. And it all happened by choosing to accept him rather than reject him.
Sid: Do you know, if you hadn’t operated in love he could have gotten offended eventually and went right back into the streets and his life would have been totally wasted.
Patricia: Exactly. Love is so important Sid. We’ve seen love. Just a little bit of love filling a person who has love deficits can totally transform their life.
Sid: Tell me about your work in Cambodia and Thailand with the sex slaves.
Patricia: Yeah, a number of years ago the Lord led me to go to Bangkok and He said “I want to show you some things about sex-tourism. And I thought “Okay, I’ve never heard about sex-tourism before.” When I go there I realized that there are children and young boys and young girls being exploited for the purpose of sex trade; people were coming from all over the world to buy sex. And it just broke my heart; in fact I was so overwhelmed I remember sitting in a bar with a young girl and she looked so young; she looked about 15 years of age or something. She shared her story with me of how she had been sent into Patia to work at the bars by her own parents. And she went there as a virgin and was prostituted out and she had tears filling up her eyes and it just broke my heart. But it overwhelmed me and I thought “What can we do?” And love will always have an answer; when you’re overwhelmed when your heart is overwhelmed when you go to God who is love He will give you an answer. So He gave us a little project to work on; we went into the bars one night and sang some love songs and some special music. We asked the brothel owner if we could be the entertainment for the night and sing some love songs on Valentine’s Day and she said “Yes.” And they were Jesus love songs we didn’t tell her that but we just went in and sang. And through the atmosphere changing because of love; because of creating an atmosphere of love we were able to reap a harvest that night where a number of girls gave their lives to Jesus Christ. We went back, it gave us so much encouragement that we went back a number of months later and hosted a love feast for the girls in the brothels for 120 girls. We set up a beautiful hotel; a beautiful meal; we went out to the bars and bought girls out of the bars for $30 for the night because the brothel owners wouldn’t let them go unless we paid. We sat them in this banquet feast and told them how much God loved them. For the most part most of them had never ever been told that ever. Over 80% of the girls that night gave their lives to Jesus Christ because of love; because they felt love. A number of them left the bars that night never to return again. We were able to get them into programs but from that night the Lord continued to propel us in love to rescue little children. Which we work a lot with children at risk now delivering them out of the sex trade putting them in proper homes; getting their health back up; educating them. And it was all propelled by love.
Sid: And you know the thing that is so amazing to me is your whole series “Create Your World by Changing Your Atmosphere.” You literally, not only get them out of the sex trade, not only get them saved and disciple, but God is giving you tremendous business ideas. Do you have a big background in business? And these business ideas are supporting them now.
Patricia: I don’t have a business background; I have a nursing background. After I left my nursing career I went into full-time preaching and ministering on the missions fields. But a number of years the Lord spoke to me that He was about His Father’s business and He showed me how we can actually change the atmosphere of communities and nations by establishing businesses. So the first business that we started in Cambodia was with a bag of soap Sid.
Patricia: You know we were in a very poor area; people were selling their children because they didn’t have money to feed…
Sid: Oh, I’m so sorry this is so fascinating to me…