Sid: You know what I find interesting I’ll tell you kind of a trade secret that I know that most people don’t know. When ever I interview a guest what ever anointing they’re working under I start working under that while I’m interviewing them. I just wish that it cold continue after I interview them because my guest this week is Aliss Crisswell. And I’m speaking to her from her home in Chester, United Kingdom. And Aliss cried out to God for 12 years; walked in instant obedience to God and then in 2009 she by faith opened up a Cafe for evangelism. And she had a little sign there saying “If you want us to pray for you come on in it’s free; although the people said “How much is it, even though the sign said free.” And the miracles started erupting; now Aliss as I was introducing you I believe there are people that have wrist problems and if they will move their wrists right now. There’s things like carpels tunnel and things like that and you’ll find that you have no…that it doesn’t hurt anymore; the pain is totally gone in Jesus Name. Now Aliss I am fascinated after you opened this Cafe the miracles that happened. Tell me about the glory cloud and the drug dealer.
Aliss: That was an amazing experience. One day we had this young guy came in and I knew that he was a drug dealer and I had a bit to do with him I had been chatting with him previously. I was sitting in my Cafe and I was chatting to a lady before he actually walked into the Cafe I said to her “The Holy Spirit has told me that a drug dealer is going to give his life to Jesus today.” So we already knew but we didn’t know who it was going to be. And just after I said that this young guy walks into the door to buy his cooked breakfast which we were serving in the cafe. And I said, “You know I think he’s the one; I knew that he was a drug dealer.” So what happens is he get’s his breakfast he goes outside he take it outside and he sits on the grass outside with is friends. And I said to my friend “Oh, I want to pray for him and talk to him but I don’t want to go out there where all his friends are.” So I said “Lord, would you send an angel right now to go and to get him and to bring him back into the Cafe. So instantly we looked outside the window and he stood up and he walked straight back into the Cafe; as he go to the door we went and starting prophesying to him and telling him how much we love him and how much God loves him; how he’s called to be a leader. And he told us some problems that he had so we started praying; he had a severe head problems, all the pain went. Then he called his friends over and there was four of them then; and we were praying and prophesying over all of them. They were being healed by Jesus, they were just…you could really feel the presence of God very strongly. And then suddenly one of them right outside the Cafe door one of them suddenly says “What’s that, is that something to do with God?” So I looked up and right in front of us was the thickest cloud I have ever seen in my life; it was right in front it was like a wall. It was all the way; it was about 100 feet wide; I mean it was huge; you couldn’t see over the top of it; we couldn’t see through it. So I really wish afterwards that I had got a camera or got my phone out.
Aliss: And had taken pictures; but the only thing that came into my head I just blurted out and I said oh no first of all they said “Is that something to do with God?” And I said “Oh, I could just think about the glory cloud on the mountain.”
Sid: Yeah, I was just reading this morning about Jesus was caught up in the cloud when he left and he’s going to return in a cloud. I’m wondering if it’s going to be a cloud like you saw.
Aliss: Yeah, maybe so all I could think of to say was “I think it’s a glory cloud; I think it’s the presence of God, the presence of Jesus.” And then the next thing out of mouth I said “Who wants to get saved?” And they all said “Yeah, we want to get saved.” And I said “Well, wait a minute you know what that means?” And I stopped to explain what it means to give your life to Jesus. And they said “Yeah, yeah we want to do that.” And I said “Well, it means changing your life style?” And they said “Yeah, yeah I want to do that.” And they all entered back into the Cafe and the Cafe was packed full of people but they found a space right in the middle and the four of them got down on their knees. And then me and my friend we were all; we joined in the circle and we held hands with them and they just confessed; they started confessing their sins. And weren’t telling them what to say and all of this and I didn’t even want to know what they’d been up to but it was all coming out and people were watching them and they didn’t care they were praying out. And we asked for the Holy Spirit to come and then they all gave their lives to Jesus. And they could hardly stand up because the presence of God was so strong. And it was just incredible; incredible day.
Sid: Tell me about Muslim’s read that sign you know “Free Prayer” and they come in. Tell me about some Muslims that came in.
Aliss: Yeah, this was actually in our shop because as well as the Cafe it was in the suburb of Chester. And the shop is right in the center of Chester. The shop is very different; we have furniture and gifts and coffee area and books in there on the free miracles of course. But yeah one day 3 Muslim ladies came in and one of them she came up to me and said “I’ve seen your sign outside of free miracles. I need a miracle I have fibromyalgia.” And she explained that it was like this pain all over her body and they didn’t know where it had come from but she was in extreme pain for many years. She even had these bandages you know wrapped around her wrists and around her legs because she was in so much pain. So I told her about Jesus, I said “Let me pray Jesus will do a miracle.” And she was a Muslim lady and so I prayed and what I found is that many illnesses are actually caused by demons and fibromyalgia is usually in my experience is caused by a demon. And so I told the evil spirit to leave her and she actually felt the pain leave from the top of her head and it moved all the way down through her body down to her feet and she felt the pain come out of her feet and she was completely healed by Jesus.
Sid: That’s normal; I pray that everyone listening including me become normal. That is normal as defined by the Bible, tell me you’ve had some pretty outrageous things happen Aliss. For instance tell me about Claire who had a slipped disk.
Aliss: Oh yes, in fact she had 2 slipped disks. This lady called Claire she called me on the telephone on day and she told me that she was in bed; she had been in bed for 2 weeks with 2 slipped disks in her back and she was in a lot of pain. Now she said “Please will you pray for me?” So I prayed for her over the telephone and I prayed for her healing nd we hung up the phone and then after we finished on the telephone I continued to pray for her. And what I did was as I was praying I imagined going into her house up her stairs; I imagined myself going into her bedroom where she was. I imagined my self putting my hand on her head and praying and I imagined all of this oil coming out of my hand and down her back. Now soon after that she called me back and she was screaming on the phone; she said “You won’t believe what’s happened!” She said “I just had a vision of you; she said “Just as we hung up the phone I had a vision and you walked into my bedroom and I saw you walk over to me and you put your hand on my head and all of this oil came out of your hand and it ran all the way down my back.” And she said “I’ve just jumped out of my bed completely healed by Jesus.”
Sid: You know what I’m thinking as you’re telling me this testimony?” Is we have haven’t even begun to touch what is available to us in the Spirit. I mean we’re in…most aren’t even in kindergarten. But just as it says in scriptures “Eye has not seen; ear has not heard all that God has in store for us.” Tell me; you thought that that was outrageous; tell me about the person a non-believer a lady goes into your Cafe and she’s supernaturally transported.
Aliss: Oh yeah, that’s great. She comes into our Cafe; she doesn’t know Jesus; her two sons are in jail. She said “Please pray for me; and pray for my family; I’m about to go on vacation to Haven Holiday Park in Wales.” And so we pray for her family; we pray a blessing on her; we tell her about Jesus. She gets into her car; it’s a two hour journey to where she’s got to get to Haven Holiday Park. She drives and it goes on for hours like 5 hours later she realizes that’s she’s completely lost she’s no where near Haven Holiday Park. She in the middle of Wales; all she can see is mountains and sheep and no people. And it’s beginning to get dark and she’s starting to panic. So she says “God I need your help, please get me to Haven Holiday Park.” She says “If you get me there I will give my life to you and I will be a good person for the rest of my life.” And you know as soon as she said that she’s driving along and suddenly the headlights switch off on her car. Her GPS switch is off and her phone switch off all at the same time. She screams, she slams her foot on the break; she stops the car, she looks out the window and there is a sign outside the window saying Haven Holiday Park. (Laughing) She’s been completely what do you call it transported, trans-relocated in her car by Jesus. She goes into the Holiday Park where her mother is waiting for her. And her other says…she tells her mother what happened and her mother said “I told you not to take all of those drugs anymore.” (Laughing)
Aliss: And she said “I’m not taking any.” But you know what happened; she came back two weeks later into the Cafe to tell me all of this. I said “It’s just like Philip in Samaria when he got transported by the Holy Spirit but he wasn’t in the car. And she said “I told God I’d give my life to Him so I want to give my life to him now; what do I need to do?” Not only was the lady saved but her two sons gave their lives to Jesus too.
Sid: Now, is your walk with Jesus boring?
Aliss: Not at all.
Sid: No, but I’m going to tell you something; those that are listening it’s boring compared to yours. Your is normal.
Sid: I want everyone everywhere to be so excited about the Messiah; I mean some of you your head is hanging down and saying “Woe is me.” How are you going to provoke Jewish people to jealousy? It says “Salvation has come to the Gentile to provoke Jewish people to jealousy.” But you say “Sid, you don’t know what’s going on in my life.” But I’m a member in the human race and I know that this is truth. I know that if you’ll stop feeling sorry for yourself; I know that if you’ll put your eyes on the Messiah He’ll keep you in perfect peace.” I know that that He loves you; I know that He loves you enough to send His Son to die for you. God so loves you it’s not just a cliche if you saw that movie “The Passion of Christ.” everything that Jesus went through were for you; you are important. Now I’m going to talk to a man that was about ready to just leave the pastorate; leave his family; just leave everything; just run away. Steve Gray who is the Senior Pastor of World Revival Church in Kansas City; his church has been in revival some 8 years it’s hard to believe but I’ll take you back then and what did you want to do before God’s power hit you?
Steve: Well, yeah I was at the point that I thought maybe I should quit. I think the amazing part of the ministry I should say. The amazing part of the story is we’re not talking about a non-believer here that is suddenly transformed; we’re talking about somebody that’s in the ministry 20 years and was doing good; good but it wasn’t God’s power it wasn’t God it was just good. And it wore me out just trying to do good and and be good without the power of God. And I’d kind of come to my limit and then the place was “You know what without the power of God I tried to do good but there was a lot that didn’t turn out so good; and there was times when I wasn’t so good and I had to admit that to myself.” So I began to have regrets and see my failings and all of a sudden it was well, what’s this all about? Where do I go from here just preach another sermon about some inspirational thought that I had or got out of Readers Digest or something like that; what do I do. And everything became empty and I wanted to have the real thing and I began to go on a search and my heart was hungry and I desired for it. And like so many other people it came at the lowest point and the darkest time but it made me vulnerable and not only to my own thoughts which weren’t too good sometimes. You know I thought maybe I was finished or maybe I was worthless and it put me up against the devils thought and he was telling me that I was worthless and defeated. But it also made me vulnerable to God and God was willing to do something and I didn’t give God an option. I didn’t give God the right option I gave God the option that “God I could quit; I could retire; I could go sell cars; I could go back to teach…
Sid: No, no, don’t do that, don’t sell cars but go ahead; but go ahead. (Laughing)
Steve: I said but…I didn’t give God but one option and that is that He would actually come down and touch me in such a powerful way that I would be different. But not only I would feel different and think different I would have a different ministry that would be effective. And that I could just reach out my hand; or take the hand of another pastor or another person that’s hurting and devastating as me and as in a matter of seconds they’re changed; different; they’re outlook; they’re full of hope; they’re ready to go back and preach; they’re ready to go back and get in church; they’re ready to go back and get back in the saddle and ride again. It’s amazing; but that’s what happened to me. And it came down when I walked into my…and I like the story too because I was in my own church and that’s what I love to see people go into their own churches and there they meet the power of God that empowers them to go the next level and the next step.
Sid: Take me to the moment that power came on you; give me a picture of it.
Steve: Well I came a part you know I’d been in the ministry 20 years; I’d been pastor there for 12 years; same building; you know the same same parking space.
Steve: Same door; same everything was the same and I pulled in the parking space and I’d been praying and seeking and I could hear the music through there and I’d made the decision…I’d first thought I maybe wasn’t going to go back but I decided I would go back and I’d step into that room again but if God doesn’t do something I am not going to start over; I’m not going to just going to turn this leaf over it’s got to be changed. So I was a little nervous about that but I was willing to walk in; the music at already started the service. I put my hand on the first door and I went through; I stood outside; I’d put my hand on the next door and I thought “Well, here I go this is it.” Well, I pushed open the door and I walked in and all eyes in the congregation went to on me and the first person I saw though, really saw though was Kathy my wife Kathy. And she was about 20 steps away or so and I got a little closer and I decided that well, I’d been away I’d been seeking God; I’d been trying to find what to do; I hadn’t seen her and I thought I hadn’t seen her I’d just give her a hug that’s it. That’s what a husband should do after he hadn’t seen his wife in 2 weeks; I walked toward her about 8 more steps I stuck my arm straight out to give my wife a hug but before I could even touch her the power of God came like a lightening bolt from heaven. And I mean it struck; it struck hard and precise and quick and it was just in the twinkling of an eye “Wham” and it was electrified inside inside, outside, I’m almost about to relive it right now Sid (Laughing).
Sid: Well, I can feel the presence of God around what you’re saying.
Steve: Things came in but not only that things lifted off; it was like it just fell off of my shoulders the weight. And I was like “Who am I, what is happening to me?” And I began like the person in the Bible that walking, leaping and praising God after they were healed; I was responding without thinking about what I looked like. I jumped up and down, my arms were going up and down. Kathy says I did a couple of twirls and I don’t know if I ever did in my life.
Steve: And I was different; but not only was I different I was ready to really do something. I was different as a person in my spirit; in my soul; in my body I felt different; but I was empowered and I didn’t know I was empowered then; but it wasn’t going to be a very few minutes later where I saw the power of God begin to work as I was an in effective person in the power of God and suddenly I was affective.
Sid: You know I see some key ingredients; I see number 1 you were crushed.
Sid: I see number 2 you were desperate.
Sid: I see you were desperate for reality or toss in the towel but I don’t want the facade anymore.
Sid: And you reached that point and I believe that we have listeners right now that are at that point; they’re ready to throw in the towel. But guess what you are in the position that Steve was in. You have just been positioned to receive this anointing; this manifest presence of God. Now Steve is taking this presence of God one on one to Jewish people; but he can only like I can only do it to one person at a time so to speak, but guess what through radio, through television, through internet there is such an anointing on what Steve is saying right now. Steve, I believe that those that have put their self in position right now would receive. And I pray that the spiritual scales come off of the eyes of that pastor that is listening right now. You are desperate, Steve I want you to pray for everyone that’s hungry right now to be filled.
Steve: I want to pray because it’s a nice warm day here but I got chills on my body; all over my body right now just in the excitement of this moment to pray for you listening that the presence and the power of God will strike your life. I got a whole world ministry out of it and the whole worlds waiting on you. I pray “Jesus, Yeshua right now; Jesus the Messiah come Yeshua the Messiah come now in Your power right now; stretch forth Your Mighty right arm and Strike now! (Swoosh) in the name of Jesus; now let that power in; just receive, just receive. He just wants to know you’ll let Him in. Come and touch them with your power God; touch them now and put the fire of God in their bones; give them a new ministry; start new ministries; open the eyes to see the things Your doing, give them ears to hear what You’re doing and empower their hands for sick people; empower their hands with the anointings for depressed and demonized people and give them words to speak to Jewish people the power and presence and glory of God. You gave me a whole ministry, now give it to others, spread it around. Now if you’re listening to me right now receive, receive, receive, and receive and don’t you doubt in your heart; don’t you dare doubt in your heart it happened to me and it can happen to you in Jesus Name.
Sid: And let me also tell you something; don’t get faked out. Steve had a tangible encounter; but I believe that the anointing of God can go through the spoken voice; can go through laying on of hands; it has Biblical precedent and I believe that anointing went into you. And what you do with it is up to you but if you will thank God that His presence is in you that you are a changed person and begin to worship Him and do not look back I believe that everyone who asked received. Now I want you to start doing something, I want you to start your own witnessing to Jewish people.
Sid: My guest you can’t help but get red hot for the Messiah when you listen to my 88 year young guest Francis Hunter. Who Francis and her husband Charles have probably seen more miracles then anyone on planet earth because it’s not just under their ministry and God has healed many people under their ministry. But they equip others to lay hands on the sick and to walk in the supernatural of God. Francis why is it that there seems to be a fight for Christian’s to walk in the supernatural? I mean the hottest churches today are seeker sensitive and they don’t want to messy with the supernatural. Why is that?
Francis: I have absolutely no idea; I have absolutely no idea what so ever. Because the church came in on the day of Pentecost and it came in with fire from Heaven. And when Jesus comes back for His church He’s not going to come back for the dead churches. He’s going to come back for a church of Pentecost where the fires are really burning. And that’s why I really believe that there is such an emphasis today on healing and why God is increasing His healing power so much because it’s the miracles that will cause people to believe that Jesus is the Son of God. So many people need a sign or something they can actually see before they will say “Well I think that Jesus is real.” Can I tell you it’s not a miracle it’s a lot of miracles, can I tell you that?
Francis: It all happened at the same time; we were down in South America in Bogota, Columbia.
Sid: I’ve been to Bogota.
Francis: Oh you have!
Sid: I have but go ahead.
Francis: Alright, and we had a Healing Service in the morning but we had trained 1500 people down there how to lay hands on the sick and see them recover. But the crowd was bigger outside then it was in the inside. We were in a soccer field so they asked us if we could do a piggyback, so we said “Yes.” So as soon as the first one let out then they field the soccer field up the second time with a crowd. And the Pastor came over and he said “In the first service you let the people you had trained lay hands on the sick and the miracles were incredible.” But he said “This time I would like for you to lay hands on the people in wheelchairs.” And there were over 100 people in wheelchairs over a 100 of them. And you know down in South America they don’t have Blue Cross Blue Shield Medicare or anything like that and so if you’re crippled you’re just crippled you have to depend on God. So we walked off the stairs and I looked at Charles and I said “Honey if God’s not in this we’re in a mess.” So we walked down; now remember this is a Spanish speaking audience so we can’t say “Now where’s your problem where’s your hurt and all of that.” All I could think about was the little Spanish I know which is “Reciba su sanidad en el Nombre de Jesús.” That means “Receive your healing in the Name of Jesus.” So we walked up to the first man and we said that to him and then we said “levantarse” because I remember that word which means get up, and “caminar” which means walk. And here we’d gone to this man that was so crippled and his legs are all bent; his arm, his whole body was just unbelievably crippled and he got right up and walked! And I said to Charles “He must have not been as sick as I thought he was.” So we went to the second one and we thought that “If this works let’s go it again.” So we said exactly the same thing in Spanish and this man got right up out of his wheelchair and started to walk. Sixteen of them in a row Sid got out of wheelchairs 16 of these horribly crippled people. When I got to the 17th person he didn’t move. (Laughing) Here you had 16 get out of wheelchairs and then there’s number 17 and he didn’t move an inch. But what do you do? You go on to number 18 but before we finished there were over 100 people got out of wheelchairs. But the funny part is there is 2 really interesting parts here. There was a black man there who nobody remembers seeing; nobody knew who he was but as soon as they got out of the wheelchair he took them to the center of the floor to let them practice walking and then as soon as the next one came out he was right back there and took them out 3rd, 4th, all of the way around with us and the last 20 that we got to before we got to them they got out of their wheelchairs and ran up to us and said “Lay hands on us before the power runs out.” And they didn’t even know they had been healed.
Sid: I need you to say something; I need you to say that you are not a special, special person; that you have a special God and that each one of us can operate in that type of anointing.
Francis: All of you can operate all of you can do exactly the same thing. All of you because it’s not Charles and Francis Hunter; it’s not Benny Hinn; it’s not any of the big healing ministries that you know today. It wasn’t Oral Roberts when he was in his prime it’s the power of God and the Name of Jesus. You see Jesus is just looking for believers who will believe enough that they can lay hands on the sick and see them recover. That’s all He wants; He just wants ordinary people; there are no stars in the Christian world today; it’s all the believers who are out there doing these incredible things.
Sid: Alright what about if someone were to ready your book “How to Heal the Sick” get all charged up and the first 5 people that they hands on and pray for the people do not get healed; what would you say to them?
Francis: Go on to number 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 and 11. (Laughing) You see the first person that I ever laid hands on died.
Sid: Oi vey! (Laughing) You could have…your whole ministry could have been aborted with that; you know that Francis.
Francis: Right, but you see I kept on and I said “God if 500 of them die I’m going to find another 500.” But I will say this my success rate has changed slightly since then. No, if the first ones don’t get healed don’t give up keep on going until you get somebody healed. Once you get somebody healed you’ll never stop, you’ll never stop again. And don’t worry I mean it takes practice, you know doctors spend years studying to be doctors. And so if we’re going to lay hands on the sick we have to sometimes spend a little time; go back and read the book “How to Heal the Sick” over again. Look and see if there was something that you missed that you should have done and then do it again. Now sometimes when we lay hands on people they don’t get healed the first time then we do something else. And if it doesn’t work we’ll maybe do the pelvic thing on; and then we’ll do the leg thing; and then maybe do something else. But we keep going until we have success.
Sid: You just don’t give up do you?
Francis: No we don’t give up.
Sid: And I think that’s the only way someone can lose.
Francis: That’s right.
Sid: Francis, what’s your favorite scripture?
Francis: “Those who believe shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover.”
Sid: Now I notice something in the Bible you don’t push sprinkling someone with oil, anointing them with oil much; why’s that?
Francis: Well, you see in the Old Testament oil represented the Holy Spirit, but in the New Testament we receive the power of the Holy Spirit so you don’t need oil. See oil was the substitute in the Old Testament.
Sid: Now another thing you say which is very different than what I hear people say is that when you pray for people you tell people to keep their mouth shut. Why? Not to be praying, why don’t you want somebody praying when you’re praying for them?
Francis: Because they can’t listen to what I’m saying. And I’ll tell you something else we do not pray for the sick. Jesus never prayed for the sick, He healed them. Did you notice when I prayed on the other programs I said “I command this, I command…” That’s what Jesus said; He said “I command this to happen; He sent His word and healed them.”
Sid: I know some pastors that say “You can’t command.” What would you say to them?”
Francis: I’d say (Laughing) I’d say “Well, read the Bible.” That’s what I would suggest. Because if you noticed Jesus never prayed for the sick, He commanded, He spoke the healing.
Sid: It’s really authority issue isn’t it.
Francis: It’s an authority issue, you either know who you are in Christ or you don’t. Because once you know who you are in Christ, once you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus the Son of the living God lives on the inside of you. Once you have that firmly established in your mind then you’ll be able to speak with authority because you’ll know that it’s Jesus in you. I have to tell you a funny story, 2 days after I was saved I was running to my printing company; I had a big printing company at that time. And my heart was beating real fast and I looked down at it and I said “Jesus, that’s not my heart that’s Yours, You’re living in me.” And you know that’s the thing that really changed my life forever. When you know beyond a shadow of doubt that Jesus lives in you it’s not Jesus way up in heaven it’s Jesus living inside you. And knowing that whenever you put your hand out to lay it on somebody it’s not your hand it’s the hand of Jesus and the power of the Holy Ghost.
Sid: And one more thing you don’t get the credit with they’re healed and you don’t take the blame if they don’t receive their healing.
Francis: Right. But I mean that we always see that people give all the glory and all of the praise to God.
Sid: Francis, thank you so much for being a guest.
Sid: My guest by way of telephone is another Jewish man that is red hot for the Messiah Dr. Bob Fischer. I’m speaking to him at his home in Tiberias, Israel. And we are excited to be making available for the very first time a special DVD that Bod has done. It’s called “The Jewish Origins of Christianity.” He has got the most beautiful art work in this DVD, pictures from Israel. And then he got permission from various organizations of artifacts of antiquity backing up all the things about the Jewish roots of Christianity. You see there is something missing; haven’t you felt there must be something more? Well it has evolved to 21st century America Christianity is so different than what we read about in the New Testament. What was that first church like; what were those original believer’s like? We have found out that they are a group of people that few people have ever even heard of or if they’ve heard of it they don’t know anything about these Essenes. But now that we have uncovered these Dead Sea Scrolls we’re getting insights into their teaching; we’re understanding why so many Jewish people believed in Jesus at His first coming. This course shows why Jewish people today are just basically they’re the Pharisees that we read about in the New Testament. Because the Pharisees became what was known as the Rabbinic Judaism of today. But the Essenes are what the first Jewish believers; what they thought about the Messiah; but Bob let’s go into a bit about the Dead Sea and the Dead Sea Scrolls.
Bob: I’m fascinated by the Dead Sea because it was a double blessing from God to Israel. On the very eve when Israel became a State in 1948 the first Dead Sea Scrolls were offered for sale by an Arab merchant. I think this is fascinating because God was basically speaking again the fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant. He was giving us an intimate knowledge of Himself and at the same time He was giving us back the land. I think that this is so exciting for a Jew who believes in Yeshua; who lives in Israel as an Israeli citizen this just gladdens my heart more than I can say. You see what He was doing was giving us enormous material wealth. The salt of the Dead Sea; the metals; the magnesium. There’s enough magnesium in the Dead Sea to meet the needs of the world for 25,000 years. The total value of the minerals of the Dead Sea is to be 4 times the total wealth of the entire wealth of the United States of America. Fascinating, and at the same time these Dead Sea Scrolls are a mirror image of all virtual, virtually all of the phenomenal doctrine of theology that we cling to within our religion called Christianity. It’s fascinating.
Sid: Bob, what would you say is the great contribution of the Dead Sea Scrolls?
Bob: Well Sid Doctor Florentino Garcia Martinez that is probably the leading Dead Sea scholars sums it up very well and I’m going to quote him. He says “The great contribution of the Qumran manuscripts is the following:
“They have revealed to us the Jewish background against which to draw and to which to insert and from which were developed the figure of Jesus Christ and His message as well as early Christianity. In broad terms I would say that the Dead Sea Scrolls do not explain Christianity does but they help us to know the Judaism from which Christianity was born. It is a Judaism which is very different and much richer and more varied and pluralistic than we could have imagined from the message reflected in the Rabbinical that we’re used to comparing Christianity.”
Sid: And you know the thing that is so amazing to me Bob is that when we say the term Judaism we think of Jews today; which is an evolved state. But when we understand what the Dead Sea reveals and the New Testament reveals it is such a different Judaism. Just as Christianity is such a different Christianity. Do you think the thing that we’ll ever really go that full circle as you put it?
Bob: I’m praying that it will because the Dead Sea Scrolls do teach us about this unique form of Judaism from which Christianity emerged. And they teach us about the first century Nazarene Essenes who were the authors of these extensive writings and the pre-Christian form of Judaism they reflect. Now we can become intimately acquainted with these Nazarene Essenes through parallel teachings of the Old and New Testaments and secular and church historians and the Dead Sea Scrolls. You know I really find that in short these writings merged the hope in the Messiah King, and a Messiah Priest, and a Prophet like Moses, and a suffering Servant, and a Shoot from the Stump of Jesse, and even a heavenly Messiah. And to one undeniable historical person Yeshua who is return they were expecting in the eschatological future. It’s just amazing what we find in this treasure chest that was found in these 11 different caves and in…
Sid: You know something I never understood is why is it taking so long to get… I mean there are still many scrolls that we don’t know what’s in there?
Bob: It’s really a pathetic thing; you know it’s one of the saddest commentaries of our time that there are many different secular and church organizations involved in this process Who in fact there are many scrolls that were found that were missing more than likely that are still being hidden away in the hope of material gain at some time in the future. There’s precious little working together in cooperation; you know there was something like 800 manuscripts out of 1500 or so that were found to be valued that have any real value. And 375 of these 800 were potentially important. And 175 of these haven’t even been translated yet; they’ve only been studied superficially. It’s such a sad commentary that these people are not coordinating with one another. And really the sadder commentary is that it seems that the Church and the secular world beyond doesn’t seem to care. There unconcerned, they’re disinterested in this tragedy but even so what little is available to us in terms of numbers of scrolls we’ve learned a number an enormous amount of things. It is indeed a treasure chest.
Sid: You know something just caught my eye in the notes where you talk about the Biblical Jewish Feasts and how closely they were related to the events and the life of Yeshua. And it’s really kind of brilliant the way you put this. Let me read this “Yeshua was conceived during Hanukkah, the Feast of Lights. Yeshua was born on the first day of Sukkot, circumcised on the eighth day of this Feast. Yeshua was crucified and Resurrected on Pesach, or Passover. And the promised Holy Spirit was given on Shavuot or Pentecost.” That’s so rational and logical and yet all of this has been pulled out.
Bob: It has its just disappeared and it’s really a shame. There’s so much that has been suppressed by the church because you know the church doesn’t understand its Jewish roots. If the church understood its Jewish roots they’d be out celebrating the feasts; they’d be keeping the Resurrection of our Lord on Pasach; they wouldn’t be keeping it on a pagan holiday that was a fertility goddess’s birthday they’d be keeping it on the 14th of Nissan, but they’re not. It’s such a very sad commentary there’s such a richness in Judaism in Old Testament Judaism as we see so rooted in Hasidic Judaism and the Dead Sea Scrolls but it’s bypassed. It’s bypassed because of this pernicious process of de-Judization that we’ve been talking about that really began with Constantine; and then later with the church fathers. And then modern days this process ended up you know in the holocaust when people had been trying to wipe us off the face of the earth and kill our precious Jewish religion forever.
Sid: Now let’s take the average Gentile Christian that’s been raised not many, not even knowing that Yeshua is Jewish, or Jesus is Jewish. What will this course do for them?
Bob: This course will show them in deed first of all that Yeshua Jesus was a Jew. That He was born a Jew, and that He was raised as a Jew, and that He worked as a Jew, that He lived as a Jew, that He died as a Jew, and that He was resurrected as a Jew. I very carefully document this with scripture and with history to show the pervasive Jewishness of Yeshua. That’s the first thing that they’ll learn about Yeshua. And they’ll see Yeshua written all over the Old Testament. You’ll see Yeshua prophesied; you’ll see Him in Isaiah 53; and Psalm 22 and so forth and so on. And the exciting thing is that you’ll see Him all over the Dead Sea Scrolls. What we have is a continuum here of the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Apocrypha writings, the Old Testament, the New Testament that all say the same thing that God began something in the Garden of Eden this process of the redemption of mankind. And that process will end one of these days when Yeshua comes back again.
Sid: Why is this not taught in every Bible College in the world?
Bob: That’s something that’s a real mystery to me. You know I taught this in a class at Faith Seminary some years ago. And my Dean Mike Adams who I dearly love came to me and after class and he said “Bob” he said, “Why didn’t they teach me this in seminary?” And I said to Mike I said “You know why didn’t you teach me?” Oh, the fact of the matter is this whole Jewish roots movement is just coming into fruition.
SID: So Jim, why do you feel or believe that Jewish people are disproportionately blessed compared to the average society?
JIM: I love to tell a story that a friend of mine tells and told me. He said, “You know, I have a Jewish CPA.” He says, “I went in one time to the office of the CPA and I said, ‘You have Christians and Jewish people, right, as your clients.'” He said, “Absolutely.” He said, “Who makes more money? Jewish people or Christians?” And he laughed and said, “Jewish people of course, 10 to 1.” And my friends says, “Well that’s interesting. What is the difference? What makes it so different for the Jewish people?” He said, he picks a Bible off of his desk and he picks it up and he says, “You see this Bible?” My friend says, “Yes.” And he says, “You Christians read the back of the book, but all the financial principles are in the front of the book.”
SID: I like that.
JIM: And so what I’ve learned, I work with families, I work with kids and teenagers, and relationships, is that if you want success in your life, all success builds around not knowledge, but relationship. But there is knowledge that takes you to the heart of the relationship that causes that financial or supernatural breakthrough to happen. In most of what I have found, see listen, the Old Testament is simply the New Testament concealed. The New Testament is the Old Testament revealed.
SID: All right. But wait a second. If the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed, what would you say to someone that says, well it’s shorter. I’ll just stick with this. I’m not going to read the front of the book, as you call it.
SID: What would you say to them?
JIM: This is what I would say. You went to school, right, and you had a math class, or let’s say a language arts class, and they gave you a book to read, and you say, you know what? I don’t want to read the whole book. I’m just going to read the last chapter. Well you read the last chapter and that’s where all the drama is. That’s where all the excitement is. But you’re not going to know who characters are. You’re not going see all the beautiful relationships that led them to that place. You’re only going to see the end result, but you’re not going to see any of the journey that it took to get there. And how many times as believers we only want the end result, especially in America. We want fast food God, is what we want. We want instant gratification. We want instant healing. All we want is a Santa Claus, if you want to be honest. But God says it’s not about the end result. It’s about the journey along the way. There’s a reason why it took the Israelites 40 years of tribulation. It’s because they still had Egypt inside of them. He wanted to get it out. It’s all about the journey. And the front of the book, as I like to call it, or the Old Testament, is where the journey begins. That’s the depth. And the Hebrew is the depth. The relationships that we have, almost every problem I have ever seen in marriage or business success, or lack of success can be traced back to an ancient principle that they don’t know.
SID: You know, I wish I had some of the principles that Jim teaches. For instance, you talk about relationship problems, not just relationship in marriage, not just relationship with children, not just relationship with employees, not just relationship with employers, not just the relationship with fellow students. And they’re so simple that if anyone follows these biblical secrets, if you will, that they weren’t meant to be secrets, but they are to most Christians, believe it or not, because they don’t read, as Jim recalls, the front part of the book. For instance, Jim, one of these principles like — this is a tough one — don’t defend yourself.
JIM: Listen, we love to defend ourselves. Deep down we’re all Greeks. Okay. And Greeks love philosophy and they love debate. And when you get two people together, listen, at some point they’re going to offend one another. Let’s just be real. But when deep relationship or success comes out, how do you handle it, not how do you avoid it. You can’t avoid conflict. I’m eventually going to step on your toes if I’m around long enough. But it’s how we deal with that conflict that determines whether or not we’re going to be successful. So here’s one of the principles. Don’t defend yourself. What I see especially in marriage relationships, but it happens in business relationships just as much, is that a husband is real good at offending his wife. We’re really good. And we do it accidentally. That’s how good we are. But what happens is the wife—
SID: I didn’t hear any men laughing.
JIM: Nobody laughed here. But a wife or the other person that’s offended will explain emotionally how they’re offended. And what happens is the other person will begin to defend what they meant. But see, to the person that was offended, it doesn’t matter how you meant it. What matters is they’re hurt. And so here’s a biblical principle. Moses, when God says, “I’m going to destroy the Israelites,” Moses does not defend the actions of the people. He gets into the heart of God. This is what, the only time in the Bible that this happens. But Moses gets into the heart of Yahweh and says, “Yahweh, intellectually you’re right. You have a right to destroy these people for what they did. They’ve just broken your holy word and so on, and so forth.” But he says, “Remember that you love them, that these are your people that you promised inheritance.” So he gets into the emotional part of Yahweh and in the most incredible way, the Father now, the seedbed, the soil has been prepared and He remembers His covenant, and then He chooses to forgive them. So here’s a parable in the New Testament to connect it. Remember when Yeshua, Jesus, gives the parable of the seeds, right. He says, you got rocky soil, good soil. You got concrete, you got Walmart parking lot over here. Here’s what we do, especially men. We love truth and we love to take our seeds, [then] back up to our wife with a dump truck and dump truck all of the truth on that person, or your employer, or whoever it is. But what if it’s concrete? You see, if you don’t prepare the soil first, they’re not going to hear a word that you say. And I have discovered, especially in marriage counseling that women understand the soil. Men do not understand the soil. So what we’ve got to do is we’ve got to get into the soil and prepare it. So when someone is offended, here’s the key. This is what you need to tell them, those that are offended: “I understand how you feel. If I was you I probably would feel the exact same thing. I am so sorry that I offended. Would you please forgive me.” Now when you’re saying that, you’re saying that, sometimes and you’re actually intellectually or factually right that they didn’t, they took you wrong. But it doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter right or wrong. That’s another principle. Right or wrong does not matter when it comes to making restoration happen. You’ve got to set the soil, get into the heart. And once that heart is prepared, then you can say, “You know when I said that, this is what I really meant,” and she’ll hear it.
SID: You know, Jim, these principles will supernaturally change any relationship. Do you think if people follow these supernatural principles that any relationship is hopeless?
JIM: This isn’t even a guess. We have people from all over the world that have sent us testimonies. We’ve had wives that have gotten the series and some of the teachings that I do, and forced their husbands to sit down and watch it, buckle them into the couch, you know, and took the remote away. And three hours later, they’re crying in repentance and the relationship is restored. We’ve had business owners that have been in arguments with their partners on the brink of divorce, if you will, from their partnership, and watch this, supernaturally change their marriage and totally restore their relationship between their partner. It is not because these are, you know, just any kind of principles. These are God principles. This is the way of life we’re supposed to connect with people from these ancient principles that started with Genesis all the way through Revelation. There’s two critical components that everybody must know about success. You have to have the heart in relationship. No doubt about it. Some people are pretty good at that. This other part is critical as well. You’ve got to have the right instructions. It’s not enough to have the heart.
SID: And guess what? What is the name, what does the word “Torah” mean?
JIM: It means instructions.
SID: You’ve got to have the right instructions and you have to make Jesus your Messiah and Lord.
SID: Otherwise I feel sorry for you.