Sid: My guest by way of telephone is Pastor Bill Johnson. I’m speaking to him at his office in Bethel Church where he’s Senior Pastor in Redding, California. Under Bethel Church is the Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry. I want to find out from you in a few moments what happens when your students are turned lose what kind of results are they getting. But before that you have teaching in your book that is just revelation knowledge. For instance, I wonder if you would teach for just a little bit on the revelation God’s given you from the Lord’s Prayer.
Bill: I’d love to. The Lord’s Prayer really has two basic parts to it. The first part is Our Father who art in heaven hallow it be Thy Name. It begins with praise with thankfulness and praise and worship, it’s our ministry to God. The prayer ends with that “Thine is the Kingdom, the power the glory forever Amen.” It begins and ends with this ministry to God. But the second part of the prayer is “Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” And that prayer is the absolute backbone for everything a Christian ever prays and everything a Christian ever does. The model for life and ministry here on earth is supposed to be heaven. When we pray that we are not praying for Jesus to return to take us away from the earth. He is saying pray “Your Kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as it is the heaven.” And the original language I am told it’s in a tense that basically means this “Kingdom of God come! Will of done be done!” It’s an imperative of a command, a charge if you will. And the Kingdom means “The Kings domain.” The Kings dominion, it’s wherever the King of Kings has dominion is realized. In somebodies body it brings healing; in somebody’s finances it brings blessing and increase. In somebody’s marriage it brings peace and harmony and unity and all those things. So there’s two parts of the prayer, there’s the worship expression and then there’s the prayer that models everything in this life after what happens in heaven. “On earth as it is in heaven.” Jesus then goes into specific aspects of our life. He talks about “They Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread.” Heaven now becomes the model for my resources. Paul said this in Philippians where he said “Our provisions would be according to riches of glory in Christ Jesus.” That heaven becomes the model for the way I relate to my material world, to the physical things around me. On earth as it is in heaven affects how we relate to material things. So He says “Give us this day our daily bread, forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors.” Now the reality of heaven is to affect the way that I relate to people and it’s to affect my relationship. And that’s a clear teaching of the Apostle Paul in the book of Ephesians and elsewhere. So now the reality of heaven affects our finances, the way we relate to the material world. How it affects our relationships and our forgiveness that we don’t hold bitterness or hostility towards people. We take on the spirit of reconciliation the beginning of every day to minister to people around us. And then the third part is “Do not lead us into temptation but deliver us from the evil one.” So now he is asking us to pray that the reality of heaven would affect the way that we relate to evil and the world of conflict around us. So heaven really is the model for everything that’s to happen on our life in earth. That’s why he goes on to say later, “That we’re to bind here what been already bound in heaven, we are to loose here what’s already loosed in heaven.” He teaches at the end of Matthew 6 that “We’re to seek first the Kingdom of God” We’re to seek first the dominion of God and His righteousness and all of these other things in life will be added to us. I have the conviction that he’s not saying “If I seek first the Kingdom then God will take care of those issues for me. I have the conviction that He’s saying “If you seek first the Kingdom you’ll discover that the Kingdom comes fully equipped. That God brings order into finances, into family, into the way we relate to temptation and the difficulties of life.” And the Kingdom is an absolute complete message and it was the message that Jesus left for us to carry.
Sid: Now I reminded a number of years ago you were praying a prayer that “I want more of You Lord at any cost.” Do you believe that if each one of us was to pray a prayer like that we would have more of God?
Bill: Absolutely, it’s impossible to pray and not move heaven. Any prayer that moves me is going to move Him. And if it’s something that I will be relentless in and make sure it’s not a casual prayer but it’s something that really moves me. It affects my life it’s impossible to pray and not get heard.
Sid: But you have to be really serious because you might say “Lord I want more of You at any cost but don’t tamper with this, this and this.”
Sid: It’s kind of like “No holds barred Lord.”
Bill: Yeah, exactly.
Bill: Exactly, you can’t put restrictions on Him.
Sid: And I happen to believe that this precise moment in history that there are anointing’s being poured out for people that are willing to pray a prayer of consecration like that.
Bill: You’re right absolutely right.
Sid: Tell me about the students in your Supernatural Ministry School. You take them out to see the poor they go into a nursing homes. Give me some examples of what’s going on with them.
Bill: They have different types of hobbies than when I grew up. Some of them will actually go down to emergency room of the hospital to find sick people to pray for. It’s not an organized outreach it’s just what they decide to do when they get together. And they sit in the emergency room; they look around the room and God gives them a word of knowledge for somebody. They go minister to them and that person begins to weep; they get their emotional part of life healed up God heals them physically, it’s amazing. They’ll drive down the street; the one God saying “God I want to just do whatever you want me to do.” And she was going to her friend’s house and the Lord spoke to her clearly and told her to drive straight. She was going to turn right, He said “Drive straight.” So she does and she looks on the side of the road and there’s a man there with a brace on his arm. So she pulled the car over because she remembered “There’s no braces on the arms in heaven so there shouldn’t be any here on earth. She pulls over to the side of the road, and asks the man…
Sid: Excuse me that’s a very important point isn’t it?
Bill: It’s how we live.
Sid: State that again.
Bill: “It’s on earth as it is in heaven.” She saw that there was a brace on the arm of a man; she was convicted over the fact that doesn’t exist in heaven, it’s not to exist here. That’s our commission. Our commission is “On earth as it is in heaven.” And we do it through the power of the gospel. So she pulled over the side of the road she said “Could I pray for you Sir?” And she had come to find out that the brace on his leg, right arm and right leg because he had a brain aneurism 11 years earlier. In about 10 minutes of prayer for both his arm and leg. He had both his braces off and was completely healed after 11 years of affliction from a brain aneurism. And there’s just… we call it a drive by shooting you know it’s just…
Sid: Tell me about in the book you talk about Jason and the guy on jury duty.
Bill: Yeah, yeah well these things are almost every day. I mean we could name so many stories. He’s in a jury he see a gentleman in a wheelchair and his cry is “On earth as it is in heaven.” So he goes over and begins to talk to the guy and ask if he can pray? And he says “What if I don’t stand up, what if I don’t get healed?” And Jason replied “What if you do?” And all that did was just cause him to have a spark of courage. Whenever that happens as you ministering to people that’s when you have to act quickly. So he quickly prayed and the man stood up in front of about probably about 100 people in the room. Waved his arms around and hadn’t been able to do anything of that nature for years. And our young man then spoke out in front of everyone “God is here to heal.” And before it was all said and done there was a couple of others that received a miracle in their body.
Sid: Now explain to me what you mean “When that spark comes you have to move quickly.”
Bill: Well, I had a guy in my office that had broken his back it was very very serious physical problems and we were talking about something else. And I asked him “What’s up with your back?” And he told me “I know that God will probably like to heal me but I just get in the way.” And I said “Oh, you’re not big enough.” And all I did was cause him to doubt his doubt he didn’t doubt his unworthiness. He didn’t move into faith, but it just rocked his world enough that I had to jump in quickly and pray before he started reasoning through this thing again. People create mental offenses to block God from moving and it’s important when we see that wall drop to step in their quickly and pray the prayer of faith. So I did and the Lord did an amazing miracle on his back. He was completely healed and he walked out muttering to himself “I can’t do this” as he would continue to bend over and touch the ground. So we try to act quickly when we see… not that a person necessarily moves in faith, but if they can just get out that being controlled by that spirit of unbelief we have a real opportunity to serve them.
Sid: You know I happen to believe because I have your book right in front of me that someone that reads you book and does what it says will get the same types of results as your students. I really believe that.
Bill: Oh absolutely, we see it happen all over the world.
Sid: You know I’ve interviewed Heidi Baker and this woman her ministry is so sensational. I mean so many people have been raised from the dead not just her praying others under her praying for it. But this is what she says about your book “In his book ‘When Heaven Invades Earth’ Bill Johnson shows people who are desperate for more in their Christian life that all things are possible to those who live immersed in the Holy Spirit. This book is a must read for all people who desire to walk in the supernatural realm of the Holy Spirit in their everyday life. I was so touched by the Lord as I read it my faith exploded; I could hardly put it down.”
Sid: My guest by telephone Lexington, South Carolina is William Morford. He is the translator “The Power New Testament” revealing Jewish roots. It’s the most readable alive action packed translation of the New Testament that I have ever read. I am so enjoying myself as I read this Bill. And I have to tell you even though I’m a Jewish believer in the Messiah; even though I come from a traditional Jewish background there are things that you have reveled in especially in your glossary in the back about Jewish understanding that is so necessary and vital to understand the New Testament the Jewish roots that I have never seen before. And I’m sure that it has to do with God happened to hook you up with a Rabbi who is a grandson of the man that resurrected modern day Hebrew. Actually made a number of the words up and put them together, Eliezer Ben-Yehuda, and he knew these nuggets that so few people understand. I’d like you teach some of these unique nuggets for us now Bill.
Bill: Alright, one that comes as a surprise to some is the personal greetings at the end of Romans with chapter 16 with verse 1. “And I am introducing our sister Phoebe to you since she is also a minister of the congregation in Cenchrea, so that you would welcome her in the Lord as befitting as saints and you would stand by her in whatever matters she would have need of you. For she has also become a patroness of many even of me.” And that’s what Paul wrote. And a patroness, here she’s called a servant sometimes. Well the Greek word used could be translated servant, but she’s a minister. You can tell by the way he refers to it to welcome her in the Lord as befitting the saints and you would stand by her in whatever matters she would have need of you. In other words they are to be looking out to help her to be servants to her. And of course why would you send a servant from Greece to Rome where there were thousands of tens of thousands of slaves and slaves were cheap. I mean that wouldn’t be done, but she was a minister in the congregation of Cenchrea, and she was a Patroness, that means a woman set over others. So in some way she was set over Paul. And just what her relationship was we don’t know. Because the Middle Eastern mind still is not a tuned to our western love for organization charts and such things. They did not look at a line organization, but they were apostles that were sent out from Rome. And obviously Phoebe had some authority some responsibility in the operations of taking the gospel to the heathen land.
Sid: But this so changes the understanding we see in the King James, or the modern translations. This is just an example Mishpochah and it’s all explained in his footnotes and his glossary. Give us some more illustrations.
Bill: Alright, 1st Corinthians 16 again same chapter number same verse number. “Concerning the collection for the saints as I ordered the congregation of Galatia so also must you now do. On Saturday evening at the Havdalah Service each of you must now set aside for himself from his treasuries from whatever he would have gained so that whenever I would have come so that collections would not need to be made. And when I would arrive whomever you would approve through letters I will send them to send your gift to Jerusalem. And if it would be worthwhile for me to go they will go with me.” For you know what the Havdalah Service is that at the end of the Sabbath 2 hours after sundown there is a service in the synagogue to transfer the congregation from the holy Sabbath day, the time with the Lord back to the work a day world, to going out among the heathens to work. At that service they could talk about money. See people look on this as the first day of the week.
Sid: They think that it’s the Sunday yeah.
Bill: And it is not a Sunday service this is a Saturday evening service to move from the holy time with the Lord back to the secular time of work out in the world. And that Havdalah Service is still held today in synagogues all over the world.
Sid: Again Mishpochah there is no way that you could understand this. You see how rich this Bible is. But I’m going to tell you something if the Jewish roots were not in it and you were to just read this to understand healing and the action and the Gospel’s that’s brought out in this amazing translation it would have worth it. But somehow by combining the understanding of the Jewish roots and the power and the expression that you have in the translation that you have of these powerful scriptures of what God has granted to us, the combination of the two is releasing the power.
Bill: It really is, yes. Another good one that we don’t know about is 2nd Corinthians 12:7 “And in the superiority of the relations we have on this account so that I would not exalt myself a thorn in the flesh was given to me a messenger of Satan so that he could strike me so that I would not exalt myself.” And there’s a great deal of speculation about this thorn is it a reference to some physical problem or to troublesome people. There is no way to be certain. But painful thorn is a metaphor for a menacing neighbors in Ezekiel 28:24. And the Greek word scallops translated thorn actually pointed to a sturdy pointed piece of wood a pike which upon a body could be impaled. It most likely was not a physical problem because whoever those people were or whoever they were they really got under Paul’s skin. So he refers to it as not as a little tiny rose thorn but as a plate being driven into him. And thorn is a good translation of it, but it’s not a physical thorn. We know that from Paul’s references to the false apostles who went around and exalted themselves and had letters of recommendation from one congregation to another. Paul really disliked them they and the Nicolaitanes gave Paul fits. He was really unhappy because he had to go back to those congregations again to straighten out their theology and bring correction to them.
Sid: Let’s go to Ephesians 5:25.
Bill: Alright fine that’s a good one. “Husbands you must continually love your wives just as the Messiah also loved the congregation and gave Himself over on her behalf so that He would sanctify his wife, the congregation the Bride, making her pure by washing with the word of Torah in order that He would present for Himself the glorious congregation not having spot or wrinkle or any of such things, but so that His bride would be holy and without blemish.” And there’s a footnote to that verse that water is a metaphor for Torah. And that’s taken from Isaiah 55:1 and Exodus 14:22 so that it makes it washing with the word of the Torah. And that the way that we are to take cover each other and the husband as the priest of the home has to bathe his entire household in prayer. Then coming from the scripture and quote God’s healing verses and all of God’s blessings over his household and do that on a daily basis. It’s something that we do continually. Matthew 7:7 we have Jesus speaking “You must regularly ask and it will be given to you. You must continually seek and you will find. You must knock habitually and it will be open to you. For everyone that asks takes and everyone who seeks finds and it will be open for the one that knocks. For what man is there of you that when his son will ask for bread will give him a stone, or then would ask for a fish will give over him a snake. And see we must do these things continually and regularly.”
Sid: I like your translation that says “Everyone who asks takes.”
Sid: That’s where that “Power New Testament” comes in.
Bill: Right and very often there are two different Greek words that mean take and they’re very frequently translated “Receive.”
Sid: I’ll tell you Mishpochah I’m sure you’re getting the message. Between the power that’s understood from this particular translation of the New Testament and the Jewish roots what a combination.
Sid: We want everyone everywhere to understand God’s marvelous gift of grace. But you know what, there is a hyper-grace movement that is totally distorting God’s wonderful gift of grace. So I said “Who do I know that would be the best person to analyze what is true Biblical grace, and what is wrong with the hyper-grace movement?” Of course it was called the no brainer it’s my friend Dr. Michael Brown. Dr. Brown for those of you that aren’t familiar with him; he has a PhD in Near Eastern Languages from New York University. He speaks, reads, or writes a dozen languages. He has been in the scriptures for decades in the original languages. Mike I’m sure you had a burden before we even contacted you about this hyper-grace message that’s going around. When did you first… were concerned about this?
Michael: Well it’s because I love the message of grace so much and I’m so jealousy for God’s true grace. I started to get burdened when I saw just some distortions, some mixture that was coming with the grace message. But in particular the last year everywhere I turn I’m running into this. Everywhere I turn I’ll quote a scripture about holiness and purity and someone will come back to me “That’s legalism, why are you throwing this under me, I’m under grace.” And I thought that’s a strange response. I would talk about let’s press in, let’s go after the Lord and let’s seek Him. And they’d throw something back at me “That’s works. I’m under grace.” And then they’d start using all the same terms. “I’m not into behavior modification, I’m not into sin management.” And I thought “Where are these coming from?” And so the more I began to look at it the more I saw that there were a number of books, a number of teachers and a number of ministries that all felt that they were part of a “grace revolution” or a “grace reformation.” Some of them say that there have been things hidden from the church 100′s and 100′s of years and now we have recovered it and we are putting this out. And I became increasingly alarmed when I saw the extreme claims that were being made. I became increasingly alarmed when I saw people being damaged. Then Sid it was like a flood pastors, leaders, believers literally from all over the America and different countries saying “Mike you’ve got to speak about this, you’ve got to write about this, this is splitting our churches. This is confusing our people, families are being torn apart.” And I saw some being touched by a great revelation of grace. And I’m so jealous for it because we can never for a split second down play, despise, denigrate God’s grace. We live by grace 24-7 but I saw it being mixed with dangerous error.
Sid: Let me tell you what concerns me the most at this point. The Bible says “Without holiness we will not even see God.” And what the affect it’s having, even the ones that are not really in heresy, which most of them have a little bit of this heresy, is that when people start watching the TV shows, reading the books what happens is that barometer for holiness goes down and they start compromising. I don’t want to share testimonies of men and women of God that have done things like leaving their wife and marrying their secretary. But here’s the thing, that’s happened even before the hyper-grace message.
Michael: Hm hm.
Sid: But it’s justifying it, that’s what’s bothering me.
Michael: Right, and here’s the thing every hyper-grace teacher that I’ve read and listened to many I’ve dialoged with; I’ve reached out to them and said “I’m writing about this, I’m quoting you do I understand you correctly are you willing to reconsider your position?” And we’ve gone back and forth and I say “No, this is where I stand.” Here’s the deal though everyone that I speak to they say the same thing “No, no, no grace is not a license for sin” when you understand grace rightly it helps you to overcome sin.” I said “But the problem is when you teach that God has already forgiven all our future sins before we’ve ever commit them; when you teach we never have to confess our sins to God; when you teach that the Holy Spirit never convicts us of sin anymore; when you tell us that anything where you have to exert some sort of effort to please God or obey God that that’s all wrong that that the flesh that that’s not grace.” Of course you’re setting people up for destruction; of course you’re opening the door for deception to come in. And I’ve told them “We’re not telling people that grace gives them a license to sin your very message is telling it in other ways.” And that’s the mixture, God’s true grace Titus 2nd chapter teaches us to say “No to ungodliness.” God’s true grace changes us from the inside out. Now here’s what is so important I didn’t call the message counterfeit grace in my book because there’s a wonderful true message that they’re preaching but it’s been preached with exaggeration; it’s been preached with distortion; it’s been preached with error added in. So a lot of people just get the true part and they’ll say “My life has been changed by this message” I want to preserve that; I’m jealous for that; I don’t want to take away any good thing that anyone received. But when you mix anything with a little poison it can be deadly Sid.
Sid: You know one of the statements that I hear quite often and I believe we have to define this many say “I’m under the New Testament not under the Old; I’m not under the law anymore.” What would you say I walked up to you Mike and I said “I’m not under the law anymore.” What would you say?
Michael: I would say absolutely, number 1 you’re not under the law as a system of justification; you don’t have to keep this commandment, this commandment to be justified. We’ve been justified through faith in Jesus saying “God save me from my sins.” You’re not under the law as a system of justification; you’re not under the condemnation of the law that if you fail to keep the Sabbath one day there’s a death penalty of something like that. And you’re not under the law as a tutor, or a supervisor to bring you to the Messiah. This is all laid out in scripture; as a matter of face I get into this in detail in my book as well. So the law is no longer leading us to the Messiah; we have found the Messiah and we’re in Him. NOW under the New Covenant the law is written on our hearts. NOW under the new covenant we have a higher standard. The law said “Don’t commit adultery.” Jesus now says to us “Don’t lust in your heart.” The law said “Don’t murder, now Jesus grace says to us don’t hate in your heart.” So now we are supernaturally empowered to do what the law commanded us to do; we couldn’t before, it was written on a tablet saying “Do this, do that.” Now through grace it’s written in our hearts and that’s why Hebrew’s warns us “Don’t tamper with it because this is so much higher; so much more precious it cost Jesus His blood.”
Sid: Okay, if that’s true why don’t… since the law is written in our heart why don’t we just cut out our Old Testament and throw it away. Why should we even hang on to it?
Michael: Awe, do you know that one hyper-grace teacher of whom I quote in my book went as far as saying and I wrote to him and said “You still stand by?” He said “100%.” He said “The Bible Society,” I don’t know which Bible Society he meant, “made a terrible mistake when they put the Old Testament together with the New Testament it has terribly confused believers.” Sid I have chapters in my book talking about how the Old Testament is thrown out. And people say “No, no, no we can learn from it; we can learn from examples.” Well Paul writes in 1st Corinthians 10 to believers and said “Look at how Israel sinned.” Look at how adultery, sexual morality, and don’t do the same because these are warnings for us. Sid the Bible of the early church was quote the Old Testament that’s the only Bible they had. Paul preached grace based on the Old Testament; now people want to throw it out. That’s an ancient heresy that goes back to an early church leader who went heretical called Marcion and it goes all the way back to the 2nd century; it’s being revisited today. People are getting so caught up…
Sid: So the same spirit that was on this Marcion is on the hyper-grace teachers today.
Michael: Or at least the tendency to go in that same direction. There is one very well know TV preacher, author that he has a series a teaching series that contrast the God of the New Testament; the God of love and mercy with the God of wrathful God of the Old Testament. That is classic Marcion belief. So we need to recognize a serious root of error. Sid, I’ve read stuff. You know I read the Hebrew like other people read the English.
Sid: Listen, you provoke me to jealousy. Not only does he read the Hebrew but he has memorized a great deal of the Old Covenant in Hebrew. Is that correct?
Michael: Yeah and I’m provoked that there is a whole lot more that I want to memorize that I want to get in my heart and mind. It’s not that big a book when you really think about it. But Sid I read some quotes and here’s what happens, Preacher A says it and then 100 other people repeat it. I see verbatim book after book, teaching after teaching, they all say the same thing because they all think that Brother So and So researched it because he said the Hebrew said this and that. And it’s wrong!
Michael: That’s absolutely false; that’s absolutely false. I think “What Bible are they reading?” And what grieves me is that some of these people are fine people with a fine message that could help so many. But they feel as if to really preach grace they have to go to this hyper-extreme. Some of them say “If it’s not too good to be true it’s not grace.” Well then here’s a logical question, “If there is a hell, if there’s future punishment, then it’s not too good to be true.” Some of them have gone off the deep end and say “That’s right everyone will be ultimately be saved because hey “It’s grace.” This is where it leads.
Sid: Don’t even some of them say the devil is going to end up being saved?
Michael: Yeah, there’s one fellow whose promote it; he used to promote a healthy revival repentance message. Then he began to preach hyper-grace and the moment that you try to interact you are Ishmael, I am Isaac, you are under the law and the flesh and I’m in the Spirit. And now he keeps going further and further and says “Why not, why not Satan being redeemed; why not these wicked spirits being redeemed?” Is there anything outside of God’s grace? Now 99% of the guys would reject that but that’s where it does when it goes untethered from scriptural truth.
Sid: You know Mike I am so excited to release your brand new book we are the first it’s called “Hyper-Grace” subtitled “Exposing the Dangers of the Modern Grace Message.” It’s 300 plus pages. But this is in my opinion the defining book for one of the greatest heresies that the church has had in modern times….
Sid: I love the teaching of my guest because my guest says that what we see today displaying the power of God is abnormal compared to what God wants for us. His name is Pastor Bill Johnson. I’m interviewing him on his brand new book “When Heaven Invades Earth.” He is the Senior Pastor of Bethel Church in Redding, California. I’ve been there, and I have to say Pastor Bill it is a wild exciting happening. And that’s the best way that I can describe your Sunday morning service.
Bill: I agree I just love it so much I miss it a lot when I’m gone.
Sid: Now we’re going to have a lot of people upset with us if we don’t get right to this story. I said “You officiated in one of the most abnormal and that’s the word…”
Sid: “…unusual weddings I’ve ever heard of.” For those that didn’t listen yesterday if you would just update us real quickly and then talk about the person that you prayed for.
Bill: Okay, well we had a wedding where a couple met in our ministry to the broken and poor. They decided to invite the homeless and the poor of our city to their wedding as the honored guests. And they would give all of their wedding presents to them. They had registered at Target for coats, hats, gloves and sleeping bags. So it would be something that they could really use. A man was brought on the bus to the wedding that was in bad shape had 2½ – 3 years to live. The exciting part for me was the response of our people. They came to me so excited that there was somebody there that had 2½ – 3 years to live and they were excited because they knew what God was about to do; they had that sense that here’s another impossibility that’s going to bow it’s knee to the name Jesus. So when the wedding was over and my brother and I took him to the side and asked him what was wrong with the wrist? He told us that he had carpal tunnel; so I asked him if he could remove the braces. Because I like people to remove whatever they may be trusting in. And my brother and I each took an arm and laid our hands on the wrist commanded it to be well in Jesus name. We removed our hands and asked him to move them around and he did and they were completely healed. So I said “What’s wrong with your leg?” I noticed he limped and he had a cane and he told me that he had been in a very severe accident. He had stainless steel shin; I think stainless steel hip; he had half a lung removed. It was a real serious thing and his leg ended up 2 short; when they put everything back together it was just too short. So we prayed for him; I had him sit down and of course most people like to close their eyes when we pray and I like to keep them open so I can see what God’s doing. So I said “I want you to watch this.” So he watched and so we held his leg out and his leg actually grew. And you’ve got to remember he’s got metal parts in there.
Sid: I was just going to ask; it’s a miracle when bone grows…
Sid: It’s getting absolutely ridiculous.
Bill: Yeah, we’ve seen a few of those cases where metal will either grow or shrink according to what the need is. And in his case it needed to grow so we command it to grow; either the bone or the metal something grew. The leg came completely out and he walked across the room. This was really funny; I love to pray for nonbelievers because they just don’t have that religious response you know. He stood up he just kind of shifted his weight from side to side and he said “That’s about right.” And it made me feel like he was trying on a new pair of shoes or something. But I said “Why don’t you walk across the room.” And he did and there was no pain, there was no limp he was completely well. I said “What’s up with the neck? And he said “Oh, he said “I’ve got cancer and they’ve said “I’ve got 2½ – to 3 years to live.” And he had this brace that actually held his head in place it wasn’t like a small whip lash that breaks; that was just for protection. It actually held his head in place. I said “How about if you remove that.” And he said “That would be fine so he did, but he told us ahead of time that the muscles in his neck were destroyed and he wasn’t able to hold his head up.” Now I don’t remember it’s been awhile, and I don’t remember is it was because of the cancer or the chemotherapy at any rate the muscles weren’t functional to hold his head up. So we had a bunch of folks gather around him; and actually a medical doctor came and held his neck his head in place and we began to pray. And the medical doctor I heard him call out the muscles by their Latin names commanding them to grow. We prayed for maybe 60 seconds, maybe 2 minutes. And when we were through, removed our hands and the gentleman turned is head from side to side and all of the strength was restored in his neck instantly. Then he put his hand on the side of his neck and he said “They’re gone.” I said “What are you doing?” He said “They’re gone.” I said “What?” He said “The lumps on his neck” apparently the cancer. And he went back to the doctor and got a clean bill of health because the Lord had healed him completely of the cancer and everything else.
Sid: Out of curiosity a homeless man; a few years to live, his chronic pain, limp, braces.
Sid: What happened to him? Unsaved.
Bill: Yeah, he was around town for a while he actually went back to work; he hadn’t worked in 17 years. He had been on the welfare system for all of that time for various reasons. He got a job within a couple of weeks. I don’t know that they were hopeless; I think that they were living in an old school bus so they had some sort of covering a roof over their head.
Sid: You made a comment to me, your glad that he wouldn’t have the typical religious response. What is the religious response?
Bill: It’s actually harder sometimes to pray for Christians because they have this thing in their head… they have an expectation of what’s going to happen or what’s not going to happen. And a non-Christian just seems to have a clean slate. And Christians tend to give me some sort of religious response. They’ll say “Well, I know it can happen or know that it’s going to happen someday.” They almost shut down the miracle just in their response.
Sid: Are Christians almost brainwashed to walk in unbelief?
Bill: Oh, absolutely. (Laughing) People will tell me all the time that I know that God can do it; it’s faith that says “I know He will.” There’s a great difference that hope that says “I know that He can,” and the faith that says “I know that He will.”
Sid: So what advice do you give a Christian that’s saying “That’s me, I’ve got a disease, I’ve been prayed for by the best I know God heals; I know that God wants to heal me but I’m not making that connection I must be rain washed, what should I do?”
Bill: We’ve got to return to a place of rest. Hebrew 3 and 4 talks about that place of rest, it’s not a striving. The culture that we have in America much of the faith culture is a striving culture where we are laboring so hard to believe. And faith really comes out of rest; it comes out of a place of acceptance.
Sid: Your right; it’s almost a works mentality “I’ve got to do something to earn my healing.”
Bill: Exactly or to earn faith to get my healing.
Sid: I’ve got to mediate for 8 hours every day and then I’ll have my faith.
Bill: Yeah, the enemy what he does he tends to use the principals that are true to have us overuse them to have us at the point of abuse so that we lose the real nutrient if you will, the nutrient value of the truth. So the striving has to stop; we got to come to a place of real peace. That shalom of heaven to really saturate our hearts. Faith is the most natural response for the Christian if he’s had a true encounter with God.
Sid: Now in your book you talk about the original commission that Adam and Eve had to subdue the whole earth. However it got short circuited; explain that.
Bill: Well, Adam and Eve were giving the commission to subdue the earth and to be fruitful, multiply and subdue the earth in Genesis 1. Be fruitful means to have a productive life to multiply means to have children, who have children, who have children. Subdue the earth means outside of the garden that God planted them in it’s not in divine order it’s chaotic and dark. And God gave them the commission to be His representation on the earth. The Bible says the heavens were made for man but the earth was… or the heavens were made for God but the earth was made for man. And so we were assigned to be delegated authority of God to establish His dominion through us bringing the earth under our dominion. And man gave it up; when we obeyed the serpent all that we owned that was given to the serpent that was given to the enemy. The Bible says “That we are slaves of the one that we obey.” When Adam and Eve obeyed the devil they gave up their keys of authority over the planet. So when the Bible says that “Jesus came to seek and to save that that was lost,” I don’t want to cause offense here but I don’t believe that that particular passage is talking to save lost people. He obviously did, but He came to save that which was lost which was the dominion that man gave up to the enemy when we obeyed the serpent. In Luke 4 Jesus had a confrontation with the enemy after 40 days of fasting. And the devil told Him “If you’d bow down and worship me I will give you all the kingdoms of the world.” And he made this statement “For they have been handed over to me and I can give them to whomever I wish.” He was making a statement there he was telling the truth. They were given over to me from Adam and Eve and now I can give them to whomever I want.” And they way that whole story reads to me is that Jesus… Satan was kicked out of heaven because he wanted to we worshiped like God. And now he’s standing in front of Jesus and he saying “Jesus I know what you came for; I have keys of dominion that you came for but you know what I want I want to be worshiped, so if you bow down and worship me I’ll give you the keys back.” And of course Jesus said “No,” and was crucified on our behalf, and when he ascended He first descended to the lower parts of the earth. He got the keys of dominion back and He stood before the disciples in Matthew 28 the great commission. And He said “All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth.” And the interesting thing to remember here is that Jesus did not make that proclamation as God because God never lost that authority. He said that as man, as our elder brother the one who had gone before us the first born of creation to take the keys of dominion back and then he gave them back to us to continue with the original commission.
Sid: Because if He had done that as His role as God then there would be no hope for us to walk in that type of authority. But if He did that as man you explain in your book, then that’s why He said “As I am, so are you also.”
Bill: Yes, that’s exactly right; that’s exactly it. If He did it as God I’m impressed, but if He did it as the Son of man I’m compelled to follow.
Sid: My guest Pastor Hank Kunneman, he’s Senior Pastor of Lord of Hosts Church in Omaha, Nebraska. God blessed him with a prophetic gift as a young person; so precise he actually provokes me to jealousy. And he just doing exactly what the Bible says to do. It says that the Gentile is to provoke the Jew to jealousy. I’m Jewish and I am provoked to jealousy. On yesterday’s broadcast although we were talking about, although he gets specific words for just any one in the audience, he gets many specific words about prominent people. Tell me again about the word you got about the burning bush and Al Gore.
Hank: Yeah, and it was actually in May in 1999 and I actually went to get the microphone and went out into vision and I literally saw a hand an evil hand being raised up out of the earth. In its hand was Al Gore and it had claws and it was trying to raise it up out of the land. And at that moment I remember saying “Lord is this the one whole shall be elected for President?” But I remember seeing the evil hand and it was lifting up Gore and I know that this was not popular because many people feel like they got the election stolen in the year 2000. But I saw an evil hand lifting up Al Gore, it’s not an attack against him but this is what I saw. I began to see the hand of God coming with tremendous speed out of the heavens. And He was moving towards this evil hand that had Al Gore in it, this was in 1999 way before the 2000 election. All of a sudden I saw God’s hand strike literally the evil hand and go around it 3 times, once, twice and three times and then I saw literally the hand that evil hand let go of Gore and Gore dropped. And I saw God reach down and lift up this burning bush and placed him over the White House. And it was shortly after that that that the Lord began to deal with me when all of this was happening. Just before the election the Lord began to show me that the election was going to go even as high as the Supreme Court. And I remember telling the congregation here at The Lord of Hosts and even around the nation I said “I don’t know what it is about this election but there is something about the Supreme Court, I had a dream and God said 5 to 4. Of course that was the outcome of the Supreme Court’s decision 5 to 4 regarding the 2000 election and their involvement. It was shortly after that and I was praying in my church here and the Lord spoke these words to me and He said “George Bush, Sr., George Bush Jr.” And it’s not them it’s not them as a person and any candidate see things that maybe God agrees with and things that God doesn’t. But He said “Hank I want you to understand the Father and the Son. I’m doing this to give a prophetic sign to America that Malachi 4 will be fulfilled in the land of America. It’s called restoration. The hearts of the Fathers to the sons; the sons to the fathers. And He said “I’m raising up the son even as the son even as the father was raised up to bring restoration to America.” It was shortly after that Sid it was in… I want to say shortly after the election I began to prophesy I think it was right after the inauguration of the 2000 election. That soon after the President was seated there would come an attack against the economy and that there would also come an attack and evil ploy from the enemy that would bring America into turmoil with the land of the land of the east. I then began to talk about; in fact it was August of 2001, I began to talk about that there would come not only a great turmoil in the land of the east. But that there would come a great fear that would strike the nation of America. What I did not realize that a month later that obviously that we had the horrific September 11th the atrocity that happened in our nation. I also remember prophesying that in would have been in June 2003 we prophesied that Saddam Hussein would be caught by the end of the year.
Sid: So tell me if Saddam Hussein had not been caught before the end of the year what would have happened to Hank Kunneman, and what would have gone on inside of you?
Hank: I think that that’s a great question because prophets, true prophets, and again there’s always 400 to 1 as how I say it. There is 400 prophets of the land and they were prophesying one thing; but then there was a prophet called Elijah who brought the word of the Lord and when he spoke he got results. There was I think 400 prophets of Ahab and I believe in the book of Kings or Samuel. Where he was on the payroll of these 400 prophets and there was this one called Micah and he prophesied the true word of the Lord and in fact Ahab didn’t like him. And what I say is the true prophets of the Lord that are being used in that fashion they are greatly outnumbered from those of the land. Now here’s my point, I think that any time that a prophet prophecies something like that it should come to past. Some prophesies are conditional. However, I believe we use that as a “Well, it didn’t come to pass it was conditional.” I believe that God is taking His prophets in a whole different realm; true ones in places where they never have been before. They are going to have to risk.
Sid: I have to believe that there are a lot of hidden prophets.
Hank: I agree.
Sid: And as far as I’m concerned most prophets that I see on television today are mixture. Why do I say that because I have a prophetic insight into their life? No, I don’t but if their prophecies aren’t coming to pass, and they are specific. Like Saddam Hussein will be captured before the end of the year, that’s specific there is no wiggle room there. You either miss it or you hit it. I don’t see God in the Old Covenant allow His prophets to miss it; so why under a better Covenant do we have such mixture?
Hank: Right, and I agree with you there and I remember how I honestly felt Sid. There’s times, and I could put myself obviously in the prophets shoes. There are times where I have prophesied things out of mouth and my head went “What are you saying.” In fact in the 2000 election…
Sid: You had a mind bypass.
Hank: Sure, and in the 2000 election when they announced Gore was the President I had been all over the country saying that this man Bush would be raised up. I shared the vision and of course I wanted to put the covers over my head and hide. But I think because God’s taking His prophets where they’ve never been before. We have to give prophets who have had proven characters, proven marriages, proven family, proven doctrine; I think that we have to give a little bit of room. I’m not saying it as a cop out but what I am saying is you know the prophetic ministry is the only ministry that I feel has carried such an incredible attack from many whether it be from the Body of Christ or whether it be from the secular realm. Because they are speaking “Form the Lord.” But the New Testament has more to say about false teachers than it has to say about false prophets. And what we have to be careful of is that we have to put the prophet’s office under the Old Testament stoning and conditions, and we don’t do that for any of the fivefold offices. Also as I’ve looked at the stoning of a prophet and what I’ve come to understand and I’ve submitted it to those who really understand doctrine. They weren’t stoned necessarily on what they said only if it was to turn the people away from God if there was character issues. But you know Samuel missed it listen why didn’t they stone Samuel he missed it at the house of Jesse. When he thought that the different ones that were being brought out before him were the Lord’s anointed. But you didn’t stone him at that. So I think that we have to realize is that we’ve never gone this way before. I think that we have a lot more media and things that we have to deal with than the prophets of old, and I don’t say that as a cop out. And I also believe that when he went to the house of Philip he had four virgin daughters that did prophecy. And it’s interesting that they were listed as virgins and they prophesied. Here is what I’ve seen with much of the prophetic is that we have vessels that are carrying quote the pure word of the Lord that aren’t keeping themselves pure. Their characters are out of whack, their marriages are out of whack; their lifestyles are out of whack.
Sid: Why are there so many people in ministry today that are being divorced and remarried? Well it’s 1 out of 2 people but it’s almost like in your face today. Why is this going on?
Hank: Well, I believe that there’s obviously a lack of character and integrity among many of God’s vessels. I believe that before we can rule over the house of God we have to rule over our own house well. I also believe that even in the house of Genesis when there was the Wells of Abraham that was filled with dirt and they had to re-dig the wells again. The Bible says that out of our spirits will flow rivers of living water. And I think that we have filled so much of our lives with wells of living water. And I think that sometimes we have filled our lives with so much of the world and we cannot get the pure flow of heaven. And the more purer you are in your private life and because that’s who you really are. Who you are in your marriage, who you are in your as a dad, who you are as a pastor. I believe that God can release a pure word that is not tainted. And there is a real wake-up call. In fact the Lord told me that in the year 2005 that there would begin to be a shaking among ministries around the world. That God was going to…
Sid: Let it happen fast.
Hank: Well, He said these words that “Before the end of 2004 He’s looking for the Body of Christ to bow their knee.” What they would not repent of in 2004 it will be exposed in 2005. In fact that was one of the words that I had when President Bush was elected in 2000 and also here in 2004. That righteousness is seated in the nation; all things are exposed. And that’s what the Lord said to me when President Bush was in power in the first election. “Righteousness is in the nation and all things will be exposed.”
Sid: Let me ask you a question. People that come to mind of ministry people exposed. Jim Baker, Jimmy Swaggart; did God give you any insight there?
Hank: Actually that was interesting that you asked that. Yes, in fact I was a young Christian again. I believe that was in ’86, ’87 I had been in prayer and I saw what looked like a Judges gavel come down and literally hit the desk. And I saw one of their faces appear before me and I really appreciated their ministry, I loved their ministry and I was torn when I saw their ministry. It was Brother Swaggart and I felt that he did a tremendous job of holding back evil. But what I also believe is that if God is raising up a prophet or someone like Swaggart for example where multitudes were being touched by his ministry; we have got to uphold his ministry. We have have got to uphold those people in a place of prayer. Because when you’re on the front lines, and I believe this about the prophets office is that out of all the gifts and out of the offices in the Body of Christ the one that Satan fears. I mean he doesn’t mind the arms growing out and the limbs growing out and people getting out of wheelchairs; yeah he minds. But my point is he fears a prophet or a prophetic vessel that’s getting pure words from heaven that are telling you national events, international events that are setting people free that are setting people free; that are changing the course of nations. Any time we see a vessel like that the Body of Christ we have been sometimes too quick to criticize.
Sid: You know I see many ministries that are in the forefront and coming against the sin of homosexuality are the ones that get hit so hard. It must be a very strong spirit
Hank: Well, let me tell you what I’ve seen; I’ve seen pure prophets stand up against it. But I’ve seen sometimes I watch for people and I listen because sometimes the very things that they will pronounce judgment, or cry out judgment on, are the very things that they secretly are dealing with in their own life.
Sid: Oh, we’re out of time.