It’s Supernatural

SID: Hello, Sid Roth here. Welcome to my world where it’s naturally supernatural. And I have to tell you I have been so looking forward to this interview. My guest is Surprise Sithole, and Surprise, how did you get the name “Surprise”?

SURPRISE: I got the name because of this spot here on my side (points to head).

SID: I see it.

SURPRISE: Yes, when I was born, they were not expecting to have somebody with gray hair coming out.

SID: That’s unusual in Africa.

SURPRISE: Yes. Yes, yes.  So when I was coming they say “Oh! It’s a Surprise.”

SID: I see. Now when you were six months old, a dog ripped your eye out. Tell us about that.

SURPRISE: Yes. That’s why you see this scar here. You can see the scar. When I was six months, old a dog was eating the food and then I was just approaching, crawling to the dog food, and the dog ripped, bite me here and the eye fall out.

SID: Completely out of your body?

SURPRISE: Completely out. So my mother with a piece of cloth run and get the eye and put it back, and tied it here, and it stayed there for two weeks. And after the two weeks they opened and my eyes were fine.

SID: Now you were born in Mozambique?

SURPRISE: I was born in Mozambique, yes.

SID: You have to understand, Surprise came from more generations of witch doctors than he can remember. But when you were young man, you heard a voice. Tell me about that.

SURPRISE: Yes. When I was a young man, I heard a voice. We were sleeping in a small mud hut, and the voice was so loud. “Surprise, Surprise, wake up! Move out from your village. Surprise, Surprise, wake up. Move from your village.” Well when I woke up my father and my mother, they were sleeping. I woke up. “Who is this one that is speaking?” “Move from your village. If you don’t move, you die. Move from your village. If you don’t move you die.” I woke up. I went to the house of my friend, Garfar, that night. And I told Garfar what had happened to me. I said, “I’m going away from the village.” Garfar said to me, “I will go with you wherever you go.” Okay, so we took off. It was a very small trail in the jungle; forest is where we were living, a lot of mosquitoes, a lot of malaria bugs, and all kinds of that stuff. So we started walking on a small trail. We got lost. We stayed in the jungle for two weeks. Later on, we are there at the bottom of Malawi in a village called Villanova. So when we appeared there, there was a man that he had a dream. His name, this man is Lucas. This man had a dream. “Go to one of the trees, acacia tree. Go to that acacia tree. You will see two boys coming from the jungle. Get them into your house.” And then this man, the following day after his dream, he went to that tree. And while he was on that tree, we were coming near, me and my friend, Garfar. And then he said to us, “I was just here to wait for you. Let’s go to my house.”

SID: I mean this is pretty supernatural! He hears a voice. He leaves his home. A man meets him. Did this man know Jesus?

SURPRISE: Yes, he was a Christian.

SID: He led you to know Jesus.

SURPRISE: The following day, yes.

SID: And what he found out is if he had not been obedient and left his house, what happened to everyone in your house?

SURPRISE: This is what happened. The following day, we gave our life to Jesus before that man, Mr. Lucas. And then because we were two weeks in the jungle; now later on the fisherman was just going to Malawi to sell the fish, and he said, in the village, such and such family they all died. How they died, the village people took a bile of crocodile. The bile of crocodile is very poisonous. They put it into the maze meal. They mixed it with the bile of crocodile. They take the food to give to my family.

SID: So your family was all poisoned.

SURPRISE: Yes, they were.

SID: If you had lived there, you would have been poisoned.

SURPRISE: I like to eat, so…

SID: So get this. A voice tells him to leave. What did you…?  Coming from all those generations of witch doctors, had anyone told you about Jesus before this?

SURPRISE: Before then, we didn’t know anything about Jesus, no.

SID: Are you the first one in your family?

SURPRISE: I’m first generation, yes, believer.

SID: Okay. You told me that you had a dream or almost a vision just before you received Jesus. Tell me about that.

SURPRISE: The dream was a vision. When Mr. Lucas was telling us about the Creation, he was explaining the Creation said the Creation, so, so, so. And then he started talking a little bit about the plan of God. So suddenly, I saw my eyes was just like changing, not in there any more. So I was seeing I was in the ledge. And this was the Hell. And then I’m ready to go into it. So then I started crying and shaking. And Mr. Lucas said, “No, as long as you breathe you have a chance.”

SID: How did you even know about Hell?

SURPRISE: Oh, well he was talking, while he was talking the plan of God.

SID: What did see with your eyes?

SURPRISE: What I really saw in my eyes, I was standing like in this place. It was on the ledge and this is very deep, steep, something and the smoke is coming out, and the flames of fires coming out, and then I was ready my life to go into it. So then I started shaking.

SID: So you were like being pushed over a ledge.

SURPRISE: Yes.

SID: Did you feel like it was real? Was it like flames of fire?

SURPRISE: Well I felt that I was shaking and crying tear down.

SID: Now today, Surprise, remember how he got his name; he was a big surprise. Africans in Malawi, in Mozambique, they don’t have gray hair when they’re born like that. And he has prayed for eight people that were dead that have come back to life. His associates have prayed for over a hundred. And I understand they don’t even count someone that they were dead and they came back to life unless they were dead for a while. Tell me what they look for to count someone as dead.

SURPRISE: At least a day.

SID: At least a day they have to be dead.

SURPRISE: At least a day because some people just had a heart attack, fainting.

SID: Okay. I want to find out the first time he prayed for a dead person that came back to life. Don’t go away. We’ll be back.

Sid:  And you know earlier this week Matt Sorger had an experience in England in which literally a fiery burning angel came into the meeting, you got to tell me about that Matt.

Matt:  Yeah, Sid we were having a morning meeting that day and later a night meeting.  It was in the morning service I was standing in worship and the spot next to me on my left side was empty there was no one sitting there.  Suddenly during the worship time I felt a burning heat coming from my left side and I thought to myself at first there is a pillar of fire standing next to me in the room.  And I put my hand out to the left and as my hand went into the air the air was burning hot, it was a different temperature than the other air; then I pulled my hand out and it got cold, put my hand in it got hot again.  And then the Holy Spirit spoke to me, He said, “I’ve sent a seraphim fiery angel into the meeting today.”  So then God moved powerfully during that service.  But then later that night we were coming back to the church; I was in the restaurant with the Pastor and few other people before the service started and my body started getting hot again and I took my jacket off and I just was feeling this tremendous heat.  When we walked into the church I stood up to preach and when I went to open up my mouth God literally struck me mute.  He would not let me talk and I’m standing there in front of a crowd packed out church full of people and I go to talk you know and they’re waiting for me to say something but no words are coming out.  I totally lose the ability to speak and lasted for about two hours.  As I stood there on the platform behind the pulpit that seraphim angel came into the meeting and the fire of God started to feel the atmosphere.  The physical temperature got so dramatically hot, people started taking off their extra layers of clothes, they started opening up the doors the windows.  And for two hours the tangible fire of God moved through that church.  People were set free, they were purged, they were delivered.  It was a visitation of the fire of God.

Sid:  Is that sort of encounter going to be happening more and more because we’re really in the last of the last days right now.  What is God showing you that will be happening on planet earth as far as the supernatural?

Matt:  Well, you know God has a vision and His vision is of the whole earth will be covered with knowledge of the Glory of God.  And I believe as time accelerates, as we get closer to the end there is an acceleration happening; you see it all around.  You see it even in what’s happening in nature and I think you know that it’s good to mention you know we see a lot of earthquakes, we see a lot of lot of tornadoes; we see these crazy tumultuous things happening within nature itself.  It’s a sign that it’s accelerating to the point of Christ return because all of nature is groaning for the manifestation of the sons of God.  And when we talk about the sons of God were talking about the church.  And you know when you study that in the Greek son of God means, mature son; so when we talk about the earth being covered with the Glory were talking about God raising up in the last days as time is accelerating right now.  God is raising up mature sons, mature daughters who will know how to walk in the Spirit; how to be lead by the Spirit; how to walk in the Glory; how to live in the Glory; how to release the Glory and how to see how God’s presence and power literally be released over nations; over regions; over whole aspects of society.  And I believe that these days of acceleration we’re going to see an acceleration of His Glory an acceleration of people really being lead by the Holy Spirit; walking in the power of the Spirit because these are the mature sons.

Sid:  Now you told me that we’re coming into, for lack of a better words a choice of people are going to have to choose to get rid of the giants in their life or fall to these giants.  I mean there’s no in between and especially with there’s going to be a transition of spiritual leaders.  What did God show you?

Matt:  Yeah, we are in a very I want to say crucial time right now, crucial time, almost life and death in some situations.  There are right I believe right now leaders, spiritual leaders, people in the body; we are at a point of facing our giants.  Every person will have some sort of giant in their life; it could be some area of their personality that they are dealing with; an area of their flesh; it could be a trial, a temptation and an issue; a character issue.  It could be any number of things but the Lord is calling us right now to face our giants head on.  If we will face our giants head on like David confronted Goliath there will be, for those who will make the choice confront their giants, deal with their giants and by God’s power see those things taken down in their life.  After David defeated the giant the crown of authority of kingship was brought to David.  His choice to confront the giant literally drew the crown of promotion into his life and brought him to his next level of fulfillment of His destiny.  So as people right now make the choice to face their giants, deal with their issues; deal with their issues in private with the Lord, there will be a promotion and an increase drawn to them in their life.  But for those who choose not to deal with their giants there will be consequences for that.

Sid:  Now one of the things that you shared earlier this week is you had a private visitation just before Oral Roberts promotion to heaven in which he taught you about love and laid hands for a special impartation.  Tell me an example of what’s been happening in your life.  For instance the woman in Wales that was so skeptical how did love affect that healing?

Matt:  Yes, you know Sid, we’ve seen love be the key, the key for the real genuine power of God, this woman, you know we were in a meeting and the altar was filled with people, we were praying for the sick and the Lord showed me this woman sitting way back in her chair.  And he told me to go pray for her.  And I said, “Lord, I said if she needed prayer she would up here at the altar, I don’t think she wants prayer, she is sitting down.”  And God said, “Go pray for her.”  So I left the altar and I walked back to where she was sitting and I looked down at her and I said, “Can I pray for you?”  And she looked up at me and she said, “No!  I don’t want you to pray for me and she was angry and mean and bitter and just had a lot of stuff going on.”  And I looked up at God and I said, “God, I told you she didn’t want prayer.”  And the Lord just again spoke to me, “Pray for her.”  So as I looked at her again and I said, “Can I pray for you?”  She began to tell me all of the sickness that was in her body and she kept going on and on and on.  And she said, “I’ve had every person pray for me, I’ve gone to the doctors, I even had this part of my organ taken out of my body and I still have all the pain, I still have all the sickness that the doctors can’t help me, God won’t heal me.” And she was just in a very depressed, very dark place, so I just closed my eyes and I started praying in the Spirit because I had to get out of the natural, if I let myself get caught in where this woman was, it would hinder me from being able to pray for her.  So I closed my eyes, started praying in the Spirit, as I was praying I the Spirit suddenly in my heart I started to feel this love rise up in me.  I didn’t care if this woman was telling me off, if she wanted to slap me, all’s I could feel and I literally felt it was God’s love for her.  His heart, His overwhelming love for this woman and the power of God was released on her.  I mean she stood there with her eyes open; she wouldn’t even bow her head to pray.  But you what God loved her so much and he saw through all of the issues of her life, he saw the hurt in her heart and the pain in her heart and you know what?  His love overcame it all, and suddenly this power of God came upon her and that woman was totally healed.  And not only was she healed, but she started laughing, she started laughing and crying and she said to me, “All the pain is gone,” she said, “But not only is the pain gone I could feel the presence of God again and I haven’t felt Him in five years, I felt so dead I’ve haven’t felt alive, I haven’t felt God in five years and I feel His presence throughout all of my being right now.”  So the Lord, not only healed her but He revived her, stored her and it flowed out of God’s love.

Sid:  …Matt, very briefly the anointing is so strong I’m tell you in the Name of Jesus oppression is leaving people, you must leave you spirit of oppression right now.  Matt pray for healing, for miracles right now.

Matt:  Thank you Lord; Father, I thank you right now that you’re anointing is going over the airwaves your tangible presence, we take authority over sickness, we take authority over oppression, over depression, Lord over every form of sickness and disease and infirmity and we say in the Name of Jesus Christ, be healed, be loosed from your infirmity, be loosed from that depression, be loosed into God’s healing and wholeness and freedom, in Jesus Name.  We declare it over you now.  Thank you Lord.

Sid:  There are people; it’s especially a spirit of oppression Matt.  And we agree two or more agree touching anyone thing and in Jesus Name we agree that back has just been healed and that neck has just been healed.  But we agree in Jesus Name you spirit of oppression you must get off of people right now.

Sid:  Now, my guest, Chuck Pierce had a revelation from God when he was eighteen, which has affected his entire life.  Based on these revelations he was able to break off years maybe centuries of vexation on his family and curses on his family; and came into all this revelation.  But on yesterday’s broadcast I said, “I was going to tell everyone something that will astound them; you revealed that God showed you that by 2016 China will dominate the economy and  not just in the United States, but even worldwide.”  And I said to you “How could that be Chuck?  China is not particularly a friend of Israel and you said to me.

Chuck:  They will be one of the greatest nations that see the investment of Israel for a season.  Starting in 20 by 2016 through 2026 they will see that Israel teaches them how to prosper in days ahead.

Sid:  Well, you know there are many people that are one issue people in elections.  Some people, there one issue is their pocketbook, other people there one issue is moral issues such as homosexuality, or abortion and rightfully so I might say.  But I’m becoming more and more aware that if someone is a one issue voter that one issue must be does that one woman have a grasp of the blessings of God or the curses of God as a result of being a friend of Israel?

Chuck:   Sid, look how Germany has made recovery, look how they moved forward because they too have recognized and come into a measure of reconciliation with Israel.  I’m going to tell you you’re going have to tell you’re going to have to look and say how do we align?  If not, see what’s happening now it’s going to be the Middle East, it use to be Israel in the Middle East, now it’s going to be the Middle East against Israel and you’re going to have to determine which group you’re running with.  Now that’s just how simple it is, and you’re going to have to look at nations and how there aligning around Israel because the book of Ephesians says, all nations will reconcile around Israel.

Sid:  What do you see Chuck if I might be bold enough to ask you, for the next five years in the United States of America?

Chuck:  Well, I see a… it’s almost like a tug-a-war.  I see a pulling apart, but this isn’t like what we’ve seen in the past.  I see a state by state by state people trying, leaders trying to determine how will they profit, the issue will become profit ability, but you can only profit, come into a true profit, profit ability through your understanding of covenants.  So you’re going to see state by state by state determining how they’re going align in trade agreements in days ahead and that’s going to affect everyone in their entire state.

Sid:  So, if I’m hearing you right, what you’re saying is it’s not an issue of the United States of America, it’s an issue even of individual states as to whether they’re going to align covenantally with God by being a blessing to Israel or not align covenantally with God.

Chuck:  See Sid that goes back to your initial statement, but if a curse was neutralized from civil war era back to slavery then why are seeing this pulling apart?  Well, we’re now going to hit the real root and what you’re going to find out now in your particular territory is how is the church first of all in that territory aligning with God’s covenant plan with Israel.  And some of you are going to be very surprised that some of the denominations that were evangelical in the last season really weren’t pro Israel and then you’re going to see how the economy and the government is aligning with Israel.  And what it’s going to do is it’s going to start pulling a nation apart again.  So that in the nutshell is what; it’s almost like pause and think about it, we are coming into the greatest tug-a-war our nation has known since probably the civil war.  And this time it’s over a nation called Israel, but it’s really about the God of Israel.

Sid:  And in the midst of this tugging as you put it, is it possible for individual Christians to be blessed, in the midst of this chaos?

Chuck:  Listen, I am telling you the favor of God’s going to come down on God’s people, the favor of God’s going to rest on us, the favor of God.  We’ll have favor with the world; Jesus grew in stature with God and man for a season.  We are coming into a place of new types of favor, but in the midst of it and we’re going to come into a new supernatural awareness.  That’s another reason I wrote this book, “A Time to Defeat the Devil,” we are unaware of the supernatural activity ahead in the next five years.  So to specifically answer your question, the next five years are, we enter into a supernatural dimension where evil expression will seen and heard as well as a super abundant grace will be displayed in the earth, a miracle working grace.

Sid:  But, you know what, it’s time for believer’s to break off the shackles of their vexation, of their curses, and that’s what you teach in this book and move into the power of Passover.  I mean there are amazing things you talk about the power of the Passover Blood.

Chuck:  Well, see the thing about it is we have to understand His blood is supernatural, and the way we express it; and now here’s the thing, now God gave me this book Sid.  He showed me righteous Lot’s spirit got vexed by being in a Sodom and Gomorrah.  And remember Abraham went to war and he went into intercession, but he couldn’t change the atmosphere of Sodom and Gomorrah.  And so in the midst of it what I saw was as times change, our spirit man can become vexed again, it doesn’t mean we’re not a righteous people; it doesn’t mean that God doesn’t have a way of escape for us.  What it means is we can become vexed so that our surroundings are controlling us.  So in this book I talk about how to get your spirit free, very few books ever talk about how to get your spirit free; they talk about how to restore your soul but not renew your spirit.  This book is about spirit renewal because we are coming into a season of the spirit realm; both dark and the Holy Spirit manifesting in God’s people again.

Sid:  I believe that and this is why and you know a lot of people don’t understand why I emphasis the supernatural so much, because I don’t see how a man or a woman can fulfill their destiny unless they move in the supernatural of God.  And if they don’t move in the supernatural of God we even know from scriptures they’re going to move in a counterfeit; much easier to move in a counterfeit if you’ve never seen the real thing.

Chuck:  Well, it’s called Sid, we forget the anti-Christ Spirit goal is to rule the pulpit, and I’m going to tell you what, we’ll get into this religious thing, but we’ll never come into the power of being the sons and daughters God’s made us to be.  And He’s saying I want your spirit liberated, I want your spirit vibrant, I want your spirit renewed so that Holy Spirit can manifest in you and you can do the greater works than what I did.

Sid:  What is your desire for people that read your new book “Time to Defeat the Devil?”

Chuck:  To know the Glory of God and why would I say that?  Because I don’t just go to war with the devil, I mean I think we live in a world that is decaying and you can start looking for all the devils and their everywhere.  What I want people to understand is the Glory of God.  I feel like David understood the Glory of God therefore he knew when the Glory of God left or when it ebbed from him.  I want you as you read this book to renew your spirit so that the Glory of God is so vibrant in your spirit where you sense His presence.  Therefore when the enemy enters into your domain you can say, “Be gone in the name of Jesus.”

Sid:  Well, were coming into those times, were coming to such a…as a matter of fact I’ve been feeling the Glory of God just as I said that I found that someone was just healed someone with a pain in their neck has just been healed in Jesus Name.  Someone with a pain in their back has just been healed in Jesus Name, someone with a pain in their arm; pains are gone now in Jesus Name; that’s that Passover blood.  But you need this revelation; there are few prophets that have end time revelation, like Chuck Pierce.

Sid:  Now the thought crossed my mind, we spend at least some more some less a third of our life sleeping.  What if while we are sleeping and we’re in that receptive state we could hear so clearly from God in dreams and get direction for perhaps for disasters that are coming in our life.  For instance I have friends that live in Israel and especially when the suicide bombs were going off and their believers before they would leave their home they would have to hear from God.  What if your dreams you had the ability to understand, but I have to be candied with you I’ve interviewed many people that have taught on understanding dreams and they talk about symbols and one symbol means this and another symbol needs that.  And to be honest with you I’m such a pragmatist that if I don’t know its God I don’t want to speculate but I do want to know if it’s God.  And so I kind of laid a lot of this aside, but then I got a hold of a Course by Mark Virkler.  He’s been a guest several times on Messianic Vision and he has designed and his gift to the Body is teaching.  He has to first learn a principal for himself then he uses it for himself then he teaches it to other people.  And he’s just come out with a three CD set, it’s actually five sessions titled hear God through your dreams plus a workbook that will cause you to be able especially in the times that are coming to know what God has for you.  To be just like my Jewish Believing friends in Israel to know whether they should take a bus or not; to know whether they should even leave their apartment or not.  What a wonderful thing, Mark Virkler, how did you get into understanding dreams and were you just like me?  Where you someone that is so pragmatic that you would have these symbolic dreams, not have a clue what God was saying and so just forget them all unless they happened to be literal?

Mark:  Well, Sid I got into dreams because I met a remarkable individual.  I was up in Toronto teaching…

Sid:  No but even before you met him, what was your attitude towards your own dreams?  Were you like me or did you try to understand them or what did you do?

Mark:   Well, I never took them seriously; I just figured it was all pizza you know because it was all just…

Sid:  Oh, you were like me.

Mark:  Just a dream.

Sid:  Just, I don’t eat pizza anymore but that’s okay I can dream about it, go ahead bad joke.

Mark:  Okay and I just didn’t take them seriously because they weren’t rational, they weren’t logical and for me everything had to be logic and ration and reason.

Sid:  Okay, me to that is my biggest asset and my biggest liability but go ahead.

Mark:   Well, exactly when God anoints our reasoning then He can clean it up.

Sid:  Okay, so how did this door open to you so to speak of understanding dreams?

Mark:  Well, I was doing a seminar up in the Toronto area, my seminar on “How to Hear God’s Voice” got done at 5:00 and I heard that Herman Riffle was in the area doing a seminar on dream interpretation, Christian dream interpretation and I found out where he was, he wasn’t very far away.  I went over for the evening session and got introduced to a statesman in the Body of Christ who had walked with dreams for years and years and was teaching principals for how to hear God speak to you through your dreams.

Sid:  Tell me a bit about this because he intrigues me, this Herman Riffle, he’s in Heaven now but tell me about him.

Mark:  Well, he was a Baptist Pastor and he got interested in dreams so he went and got some training on dreams.  He worked with scriptures and he wrote several books on dreams.  He is now, he was ninety-three when he died a year or two ago.  But the Lord spoke to him through dreams, counseled him through dreams, guided him through dreams and we were so intrigued that we brought the person to our Bible School and him teach us and taped him teaching us on dreams many many years ago.

Sid:  Well it was actually as I understand it he had a dream that changed his destiny, he would have never lived to ninety three if he didn’t have this dream and understand it; tell me about it.

Mark:   Well, he had a lot of dreams, one of the dreams that he shares in his book is he’s walking along the side of mountain on narrow path with his family behind him and all of a sudden the path crumbles beneath him and he and his family go down to destruction.  And he wakes up and journals the body and says, “Lord, what does this dream mean?”  And the Lord said this he said, “Herman this private fantasy life that your engaged in, that you think is so carefully controlled, He said, if you do not get off this path that you’re on it’s going to take you and your family down to destruction.  And so Herman repented, he got off that path, he stayed faithful to his wife, the two of them were married and like I said, he died in 1998, he died at 93 years of age.

Sid:  I have no doubt that he would have died prematurely if he did not have the dream and the understanding.

Mark:  Yeah, wonderful counsel from the Wonderful Counselor correcting him keeping him on the path of life.

Sid:  After you began to study his lifetime of revelations on understanding dreams how long did it take you to start understanding your dreams?

Mark:  Well, I was fortunate to be in a Bible School where I got a group of half a dozen, dozen people around me and we just got together weekly and we began to share our dreams and study dreams in scripture.  And it really speeds up your growth if you can do it with a group and so we spent about six months, we did three months of training and then three more months of just practicum.  Just coming together and working with our dreams as a group interpreting them together and then at the end of that six months we all felt confident that we were able to get God’s message to us through those dreams.

Sid:  Now you yourself had a reoccurring dream.  And first of all if you have a reoccurring dream what does that mean to you?

Mark:   Well, that means you didn’t hear the message the first time the dream talked to you.

Sid:  Oops.  Ha-ha.

Mark:  Same reason your mother repeats herself or you repeat yourself to your children when they didn’t get it the first time.  And so I had reoccurring dream for about fifteen years of my life and that I had had a stroke in the dream and I would walk up paralyzed, feeling I had had a stroke, I felt bloated, my arms and head and face.  And then I had the elders pray for me once for deliverance prayer what came out was an actual demon of fear of stroke and I had picked that up when somewhere about the age of eight to ten years of age.  I was very close to my grandfather, he died very unexpectedly instantaneously of what I perceived to be a stroke.  It wasn’t quite correct, but that was my childhood perception and I was traumatized by that and demons are not gentlemen so they entered, a demon of fear of stroke entered during that trauma.  And I had a fear of having a stroke for years; it showed up as a reoccurring dream in my heart showing that I had a wound in my heart that needed prayer ministry.  Once the elders prayed the deliverance prayer that demon came out with that same manifestation that I had in the dream.  My wife was in the livingroom, she said that it looked like I was having a stroke when my face was bloated, my tongue was bloated, and it came out and it came out and now twenty to twenty-five years and I’ve never had that dream since then.

Sid:  Mark, what is more important to me is not that you got this revelation, not that you get dreams every week and understand, really understand what God is saying every week.  But can I, can my Mishpochah do the same thing?

Mark:  Yes, every single one that’s listening, you can learn to hear God through your dreams, you can learn to receive His wonderful counsel because He says that He counsels us a night.

Sid:  Wait a second you have dreams at least once a week where God speaks to you so clearly.

Mark:  Yes.

Sid:  You’re telling me that everyone can, once a week now.

Mark:  Absolutely, I guarantee it.

Sid:  Okay, you heard that Mishpochah he guarantees it, I got it out of him.

Mark:  I can give them four or five things that they can do during this series and if they do those four or five things I will guarantee that they will have dreams every week from God where the Wonderful Counselor is giving them counsel to improve the quality of their lives.

Sid:  Now you have many many testimonies of people that have taken your course and what’s happened to them.  Tell me about one person.

Mark:   Alright I’m going to tell you about a lady Susan Perniglia, she developed a Christian Dance School out of hearing God’s voice out of both dreams and also journaling about the dream.  Her husband Salvatore was taking courses with us and they got married, he shared the courses with her and she had a triple dream experience where, she was in nursing school, trained to be a nurse and the Lord redirected her through those three dreams.  She didn’t get the message the first time or the second time, so he made it very clear the third time and she changed her course.  So she got out of nursing school and what the Lord told her that she should become a dancer for Him and set up a dance school.  And that’s what the dream said, so she went ahead, set up a dance school as a result of that.  And a testimony she shares back a couple of years ago it’s called a King and a testimony.  She shares back a couple of years ago, it’s called the Kings dancers, it had grown from four students to One hundred Sixty-five students.  She had nine staff teachers who was teaching it and four different locations in the Albany, New York region.  They offered a variety of dances like ballet, tap, Irish Step, Hip Hop, Flag dancing, banner dancing and prophetic drama.  And all of that was it came out of a triple dream experience where God redirected her and said, “No nursing is not what I called you to, I have called you to be a dancer and to train dancers.”  And she said, “It’s been miraculous how the Lord has anointed it, they’ve done dance for both churches and secular situations.”

Sid: You know Mark the thing that’s crossing my mind right now is in these tense economic times that we’re living in; I believe that scripture is true that says “The wealth of the sinner is stored up for the righteous.”  And what would happen if God were go give a dream to those that are listening right now, redirect their path and in bad times they would do terrific.

Mark:  He wants to do that, He’s dying to do that, He died literally on Calvary so that he could restore that kind of relationship and give that kind of counsel to his children day by day, week by week and month by month.

Sid:  My guest John Fenn is making me red hot for the Messiah, because we’re discussing his book, “Return of the First Church,” and it came as a result of three visitations from the Lord.  And one of the things John you did is you, after the revelation came as to what the first Church was like, what Jesus really wanted in the Church what was missing you began to do research as to how we actually started the way Jesus said, He wants the church to be and how it evolved to what we have today.  I wonder if you’d tell us a little bit about what your research revealed.

John:  Sure, sure.  Well, you know the first thing I noticed was all the homes was represented in the Gospel; all the miracles that Jesus did from the wedding feast at Cana to you know visiting Simon the leper or Zaccheus in his house or all the homes there and of course there was Pentecost.  I really began reexamining the New Testament and one of the things that I noticed was that none of the letters of the New Testament were addressed to leadership, they weren’t addressed to the pastors or the elders or whatever, it was addressed to the church at.  You know when Paul wrote his letters it was addressed to everybody.  And I also saw that when they were problems in the New Testament churches Paul did not say, now you elders should take care of this problem.  For instance in 1^st Corinthians 5 there’s a situation where a man has an illicit relationship with his stepmother and Paul says, and he chastises the whole church, he says you all should have dealt with this.  And then in the very next chapter he talks about two brothers who were suing one another and he says, “This should be settled within the church, the whole body should have handled this.  And so that got me thinking, and so when I started doing the research I realized that for the first nearly 300 years the Church was exclusively in home and that was in times of persecution and times when there wasn’t much persecution within the Roman Empire.  But then in 313, in the year 313 the Emperor Constantine issued an edict that legalized Christianity and over the next few decades what happened was that they began taking over the pagan temples which were set up in the auditorium style and building other buildings, so basically taking over a lot of the pagan temples and turning them into churches.  And Constantine and his successors then called people out of the houses into these former pagan temples into the auditoriums structure that we have today and we’ve been basically stuck in that same structure for seventeen hundred years.  Now what it did was it changed the nature of the relationship from depending on my brother or sister to help disciple me to my relationship with a building, my relationship with a paid clergy, my relationship with a program from that proceeded forth from that building.  And so it started to kill the relationship aspects of Christianity that had begun you know in the home and I’d have to go clear back to Adam and Eve and I’d go back to even Genesis when the Lord appeared to Abraham.  You know when He said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I’m about to do to Sodom and Gomorrah because I know that he is going to train up his children after him?  And then you can see all the way through there’s homes.  And I started realizing this is larger than saying “Oh, this is the way they did it in the first church; this is Genesis through Revelation.  And when we came out of that and came and into what I call the pyramid structure of the traditional church where there is a one head a pastor designated as the one who will be the font of God’s wisdom it made the gifts in the Body actually shut down.  They had no more place to function because they had to be silent and all face the same direction; and all listen to this one person you know be the you know be the spout of God’s wisdom for the day.  Where as in the home church when you’re all meeting together Paul said in 1^st Corinthians 14:26 “How is it brethren when you come together everyone of you has a Psalm a doctrine, a revelation, gifts of the Spirit.”  And so we have come 1700 years in that structure and that’s why in my journey when I looked all over the world, even though churches would say, we’re different in reality they weren’t.  They were all built around the building, the hierarchy and the structure that is just kills true relationships.

Sid:  Okay, how does what you’re saying differ from a good church with cell groups?

John:  Sure cell groups, there’s a huge difference between cell groups and house churches.  One of the main differences is that a cell group is still offered as a program as an option for the members of the congregation.  The main meeting is still the large congregational meeting say on Sunday.  Cells are offered as another program just like the neighborhood outreach, just like Sunday school, you know just like the Singles program and so cells are presented as another thing to become involved in.  In house church, each house church is independent; each house church stands on its own two feet.  Each house church stands on its own two feet; each house church takes care of its own people.  Now we may come together with other house churches and have a congregational style meeting, because you don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.  There are large congregational style meetings even in the book of Acts Chapter four after Peter and John were chastised by the leaders they called everybody together.  So there are those times for those meetings, but that’s the exception rather than the rule. so cell churches are a program from a traditional church but a house church is an independent entity all by itself.

Sid:  Now, one of the things that intrigue me is the shape that a lot of your groups take, for instance you have one group that meets I think a couple times a month or once a month at Starbucks rather than the home.  Tell me about that.

John:  Ha-ha, in Fresno, California our affiliate there meets in a Starbucks every other Sunday and what really started out as an outreach one of the families in there had a son whose incarcerated in prison and would have different friends that he would meet in prison while he’s serving his term be released and after he led them to the Lord in prison, but have nowhere to go.  And often times these people would go to a living room of a stranger and they certainly would not darken the door of a traditional church.  And so they came up with the idea of why don’t we just be there a couple times a month in a Starbucks on a Sunday morning; and will pray for one another and will see what the Lord is saying and we’ll use it as a means to bring unchurched or dechurched people or people who don’t even know the Lord and bring them in to what we’re doing and hopefully lead them to the Lord.  So it really began as an outreach and a means of discipleship and I like that term unchurched or dechurched because we have a lot of both all over the world.

Sid:  Now another thing that intrigues me is out of the relationships, out of this desire for intimacy with God, hearing God’s voice, and relationships with one another miracles are the natural thing that occurs.  Tell me some miracles that are going on; I understand you have one house church that had someone that was raised from the dead.

John:  Let me tell you about one that’s associated in India with a five year old boy and people say, well that happened in India.  Well, I’ll tell you what, I could tell you a story of Naples, Florida of a young man who had his leg grow out a ½ inch or ¾ of an inch; he’d been in a car wreck and you know it wasn’t so much that I laid hands on this young man, talk about miracles here in the states.  But other members of other teenagers who knew him laid hands on him and they watched the Lord grow this boy’s injured leg out and become straight and the same length as the other and he went leaping and dancing around the room.

Sid:  He was headed for surgery and they didn’t have to operate.

John:  He was headed for surgery, he had been in a car accident, had his leg crushed and they said, “You know we’ve got to wait a little bit until you grow a little bit to do this.  And the only reason I slip this in here Sid, because people have the idea of you know we’re going to meet in the living room and nothing spectacular happens.  They have to understand that when Christ lives in you and you really understand, that anything can happen and that the Lord takes pleasure in moving through the average, quote unquote Christian.  You start thinking what can be, how might the Lord use me.  And that was exactly the case in Deli India with a little boy named, Argon and Argon Doss was his name and this happened in 2001.  And about 6:00 in the evening Argon walked under a live powerline that caught him right behind his left ear and electrocuted him and killed him.  And his parents took him to the clinic where they worked on him for two hours and finally they just gave up and they said, “I’m sorry your five year old, your little boy is dead.  And fortunately the parents were part of a small house church, small group of strong believers and they said, “Man can’t do it through his means, then we’re going to call our church together.  They took his body back to their house and gathered the people together; by the time they could gather everyone together and everything it was 10:00 in the evening.  But one of the ladies, the main lady who came was a lady a 60 year old widow named Sovetre; I want to say her name right.  Sovetre and she’s of the Dalet which is the untouchable in the traditional society.   She was a street sweeper and spent all her life as a street sweeper, but she was a main one who led the prayer and they prayed for Argon from 10:00 in the evening until 4:00AM and finally at 4:00AM suddenly Argon just took a breath and sat up.  Completely normal in every way, he still has a scar behind his left ear, but he was raised from the dead, it’s because of this little house church said, “You know what, we’ll just pray and worship God and really say that Argon time on the earth is not finished and they were determined and after six hours of prayer and worship the Lord brought him back to life.  And it was interesting my friend who went there and confirmed this who is also in house church found out when he was talking to this little street sweeper who headed up the prayer team and he said, “By the way, he said in the last six years that you’ve been a Christian you know how many dead people have you seen raised?”  And she answered quietly sixteen.

Sid:  You know the change that God told you would occur over the next few years where we wouldn’t recognize America?  I believe we won’t recognize Christianity because it will be closer to the book of Acts than what it is now.